Continuing Studies: Higher Ed Podcasting

Greg Jackson: First of all, HTDS is
audio long form, and that's not changing.

This idea that people have short attention
spans and all we can handle is a tweet

or, or a 30-second reel, that's insulting.

Obviously, our species
is capable of better.

We've, we've done it far longer than,
than social media's been around.

As everyone rushes to the shiny, bright,
new object, one of the great successes of

HTDS has been my unwillingness to deviate.

Now, that doesn't mean that
I haven't innovated, right?

And I've, and I've tried new things and,
and there have been shifts on the roadmap.

But I know what my
mission was from day one.

I wanted to bring American listeners,
by and large, a deep understanding

of their nation's history, and I
knew how I could best deliver that,

and it was this long form podcast.

Again, I'm an academic.

I'm, I'm not trained
to to dumb things down.

I'm trained to be nuanced and into the
weeds, so that, that's my strength.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies, a podcast for higher

education podcasters who want to
learn, connect, and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder
of HigherEdPods.com and

Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

If you're podcasting in
higher ed, you're not alone.

There's a fast-growing
community out there, and we're

here to help you tap into it.

And please email us your ideas.

We'd love to hear from you.

Is there a topic that we haven't
talked about yet on Continuing Studies?

Is there a person we should meet?

Well, please let us know.

All our info is in our show notes.

Neil McPhedran: Yes, we'd
love to hear from you.

Okay, Jen, today, I've been
looking forward to this one.

Well, I look forward to all of
our episodes- obviously, but

I've been particularly looking
forward to this one, 'cause our

guest today is Dr. Greg jackson.

Jennifer Lee: And we
met him in person, too

Neil McPhedran: we had a fantastic
dinner with him a few weeks ago

in Cleveland when we were there
together at Higher Ed PodCon.

Okay, so Greg is a associate professor
at Utah Valley University, where

he holds the American 250 professor
position in the Center for Constitutional

Studies, and the senior fellow in the
Center for National Security Studies.

But why we're chatting with Greg today
is 'cause he's also creator and host

of History That Doesn't Suck podcast,
which he launched back in September 2017.

Over the past 230 episodes, he actually
pulls in on average 500,000 listeners per

month, and typically you see it in the top
10 history podcasts on Apple and Spotify.

So, as, as we said, we met Greg when
we were at Higher Ed PodCon, and

he was one of our keynote speakers.

And so Jen and I were like, "We gotta
get you on Continuing Studies to talk

about "History That Doesn't Suck,"

Jennifer Lee: Yeah, and he's just
such a great storyteller, too.

I know we talk about this in it, but
I was telling him before we got on the

call, I was like, "Oh, I could just
listen to you read history all the time."

But, his episodes are lengthy and a lot
of work, and we dig into How that is

sustainable for him and why he does it.

So let's listen in.

Neil McPhedran: Greg, thanks so much for
joining us here on Continuing Studies.

Greg, thanks so much for joining
us here on Continuing Studies.

Greg Jackson: My pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

Neil McPhedran: You were at Higher
Ed PodCon in Cleveland this summer

as one of the keynote speakers.

So maybe just before we kinda get
into your podcast, just give us a

little bit of a snapshot of what
you spoke about for those that

weren't in the room at the time.

Greg Jackson: I was riffing a little
bit off of a chapter from my recent

book, Been There, Done That: How Our
History Shows What We Can Overcome.

And in that book, I am pointing to
some of the things that we tend to

think of as unique challenges today
that are perhaps not so unique.

And within those chapters is an
examination of yellow journalism and

the, the rise of the penny press.

And I talk about the disruption that
basically facilitated the rise of

yellow journalism, and the many issues
that that brought with misinformation,

fake news, to, to use that term
that's become so ubiquitous today.

But of course, as you might
recall, I pointed out that the word

actually was created in the 1890s.

But I think most interesting to this
crowd is the, the point I made about

technology and disruption, and the ways in
which a changing press enabled basically

these scrappier newspapermen to push
their way past the traditional papers,

and whether for good or ill, right?

This wasn't so much a, it's the, it's
the right thing, it's the wrong thing.

But that disruption, it, it
just changed reading patterns.

Uh, We had new audiences altogether
We went from a more elite American

readership to an increasingly
literate and working class readership.

And to the frustration of, of elites,
that also meant that they had to

shift in, in what they were doing.

And a point that I made, that I argued,
is that while of course, I'm not saying

that it's a, a perfect parallel, but I
really like what Mark Twain said about

history not repeating, but rhyming.

And similarly, we're looking at
the rise of podcasting and so

many other shifts in the digital
landscape, and I see disruption.

And I see people who traditionally
were excluded from the, the

conversation in the public sphere,
maybe rightly, maybe wrongly on

both sides, that now have a voice.

And we should expect the dust
to kick up before it settles.

And I, I'd say that that's kinda
what we're living through right now.

Jennifer Lee: I feel like that's
really going to reflect to what's gonna

happen in, with storytelling, because
anyone can write a script now with AI.

But what I love about your stuff is
it's so thoughtfully put together

with History Doesn't Suck, and
there, it, it's a heavy lift.

Like, I don't know- It's a massive
lift, yeah … how you spend all that

time researching it, and doing it, and
putting such a thoughtful script, and

having that storytelling aspect to it.

What made you choose to
do something like that?

You've been doing it for a long
time, but it's a lot of work

to go the route that you chose.

Greg Jackson: It's an enormous
amount of work, and thank you.

But yes, it is an enormous amount of work.

Let, let me just quantify by saying that
those one-hour episodes you listen to

represent uh, over 100 man-hours of,
of effort, every single one of them.

So we'll just plant that seed for now.

But to answer your question,
there were a few things going on

for me that, that led to this.

I was a young assistant professor,
and, you know, I, I had achieved

what I thought was my dream,
getting to tenure track, right?

The, the one great thing before
me still was to get tenure.

And I remember when I got that job
offer I, I was a lecturer at the

university already, but now tenure
track, I, I've arrived, and it was

euphoria for about one hot minute.

And then I felt like the
walls were closing in on me.

I, I'm not even kidding.

And I, I remember thinking to myself,
"What is wrong with me?" Right?

Like, "Why am I feeling this way?"

It's dawned on me since then that
it was kind of hitting the summit.

I, I had ascended the mountain.

And that's Well, it's not who I am.

I wanna keep doing things.

I, I really wanna keep innovating
and doing something exciting and new.

And that's not to say that higher ed
isn't new and exciting, but the idea that

I was just into the pattern spot where I
could possibly sit in the same office the

rest of my career and research the exact
same thing for the rest of my career.

For many academics, that is
enthralling, and I'm so happy for them.

This was the moment when it's dawning on
me that that's not, not the path I wanted.

And so to, to then fast-forward a
little bit, a year or two uh, I was

on my way to a conference in Scotland
to present a paper, as, as we do as

academics- a niche esoteric paper.

And I- again, that, that cloud
was just kinda hanging over me.

But I'm also sitting there thinking
like, "I'm gonna present this to a room

of five people, two of whom actually
care. Who's gonna read this?" And,

and I think most academics, if they're
honest with themselves, have asked

these sorts of questions at least
at some juncture in their career.

Not undercutting the importance of pushing
the frontiers of knowledge, but asking

ourselves about the value of these very
ivory tower only internal conversations.

Well, I happened to end up sitting next
to an HBO producer on that flight, and

I wish I could've said that he then,
you know, wrote me some big fat check,

and, like, everything was funded and,
you know, that was the end of the story,

but this is not the happy ending.

This is the start.

And as we got talking, we talked about
some of my appearances on local media,

and he's the one who pointed out to
me, "Greg, they wouldn't have you back

over and over again if you weren't
good at this. You're, you're clearly

good at talking to normal people, to,
you know, outside the ivory tower."

And that, that hadn't struck me.

He's the one who planted the idea.

He said, "You start a
podcast." And this is 2017.

At the time, it felt like I was late
to the game, and of course, now it

seems like I was the, the early … the

Jennifer Lee: You're
really early at that point.

Greg Jackson: Exactly, right?

Yeah.

And I'm looking at history podcasts,
and I'm noticing that by and large,

historians aren't doing history
podcasts, or at least we're, we're

certainly not making popular ones.

So I, I threw myself into this, and I
decided I, I wanted to tell the story of

America, basically what I teach in History
1700, just the basic US history course.

You know, I, I basically just wanted to
take that ivory tower education that,

you know, even for, for me, teaching
at an open enrollment institution,

Utah Valley University, you know, it's,
getting a college education is still,

even today, to some degree, elite.

Who has the, the privilege, the
opportunity to drop everything

every Tuesday, Thursday at 10:00
in the morning to go take my class?

So, you know, we do these general ed
courses that are so important for us

to, you know, understand things as we
participate in the electoral process,

as, as we try to be good citizens.

I, I wanted to get that out there.

And I've loved having truckers who
write in to me and tell me I'm, I'm,

you know, the, the professor of Trucking
America University as they make it up.

Neil McPhedran: That's great

…
Greg Jackson: You know, like, like
they've got all their, they, they

see each other at truck shops, stops,
and they're like, "Yeah, you listen

to Professor Jackson? Yeah, me too."

Neil McPhedran: Love it.

Greg Jackson: "What episode are
you on?" It, well, it's gratifying.

It's, it's honoring to, to hear that,
you know, these people whose educations

are either well behind them, or they
didn't have that, that luxury, that they

feel like they're, they're getting the
education that they wanted and needed.

And yes, I'm very purposely delivering
it in the most entertaining way I can.

That's why I put so much sweat and
tears into, into telling stories.

But the rigor's there.

Every one of those episodes the
average episode is about 8,500 words.

My, my longest is 10,500
something words and change.

So academics listening realize,
all right, that's a book chapter

slash, uh, an article right there.

there's usually about 100 to
150 footnotes on every episode-

Neil McPhedran: Wow

…
Greg Jackson: 'cause I, I research
it just like I'm… I, I, I bring

all my academic-ness to it, right?

It's primary sources, secondary sources.

So, even the, the colloquialisms and
the the, the nonchalant storytelling

delivery, yes, that's very intentional.

It feels like I'm speaking off the
cuff perhaps at times, and yet it's

actually word for word scripted.

It, it's been written out
like it's an academic essay

and researched at that level.

Jennifer Lee: Well, and not putting
anyone under the bus, because it just

happens, but sometimes history is so
dry and so it needs to be engaging.

Greg Jackson: Hey, Jen.

Neil McPhedran: Thus the
name for the show, Jen.

Greg Jackson: Thus the name.

Jennifer Lee: Well.

Greg Jackson: Yes.

And, and I, I, most historians
are, are right there with me.

It's like totally get it, right?

I, I usually get compliments on the great
marketing tool that is the, the name.

But I have on occasion had, just
this summer, I, I met one academic

who, when I was introduced, and they
clearly had not heard of my podcast

before, she she, she looked at me.

It wasn't like confrontational per
se, but just looked at me like,

"Well, I don't think history sucks."
I said, "Well, hey, good, I don't

either." And I left it at that.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

Greg Jackson: Yeah.

You're absolutely right.

It, it can be dry, and that's
what I'm pushing against.

I wanna bring all the rigor of
academic history, but I wanna bring

the, the joy and the fun of serious
storytelling, and that meeting ground,

that's History That Doesn't Suck.

Neil McPhedran: Beyond, I think, how
you've approached it and the work you

put in and the fact that your goal
is to also make it entertaining, and

you're obviously keeping in mind the
trucker part of your audience, you're

keeping that in mind as, as you go.

If I go back to what you were
saying when you were flying over to

Scotland and you were gonna present
to a room of five is what you said,

well, now you're the opposite.

Typically, you're top 10 history
podcast on Apple and on Spotify.

Nine years later, what do you
think drove the audience growth?

And obviously it wasn't, like, viral.

Podcasts aren't viral.

But what has driven this, this much
audience growth for you, do you think?

Greg Jackson: So there
are a few factors here.

First is the consistency.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Greg Jackson: I make the post
office look inconsistent, right?

And I say that knowing that the
post office's, you know, motto,

right, is the, like, rain or shine,
sleet or snow, you name it, right?

They show up.

I've released episodes on Christmas
Day because I do a two-week cadence.

And when that happens to be December
25th, the episode still releases.

And I've been writing on Christmas
Day, and this is again year,

you know, in my, my 8th year.

October will mark nine years of HTDS.

And that is the, the painful piece that
when people do look at my success, or

at least I, I'll say some people, right,
and think like, "Well, you know, that

just kinda happened to him, that, that,
that's how, how lucky for him." no, that-

that's what my holidays have looked like.

Jennifer Lee: Was there ever a
point that you were like, "Oh, why

am I doing this?" Or, or is there
something that keeps you going?

Because I'm actually doing a,
a talk about this next week at

a podcast show about- what does
podcast success really look like?

Because it's, it's not partying
on a yacht and it's not having it-

Greg Jackson: Correct

…
Jennifer Lee: blow up right away.

So what keeps you going?

Greg Jackson: it's a devotion to my craft.

I am so passionate about history.

I mean, like, something's wrong with
me passionate about history, right?

So, that passion and a, a desire
for good, rigorous, entertaining

history to be out there and accessible
to people, it's my sweet spot.

And, and that's not
everybody's sweet spot, right?

Someone wants to make a really academic
podcast, and that's gonna reach

far fewer people, and that's okay.

So there's also setting realistic
expectations for yourself.

I wrote my dissertation
actually on French history.

Now, the, the French Revolution History
podcast, I think the same storytelling,

oh, it would be a hit with this very small
crowd, but it would not hit the, the, the

same following that, that I have today.

Jennifer Lee: But that's okay.

That's okay.

Greg Jackson: It is okay.

Jennifer Lee: And that's where I think
a lot of people don't realize is,

like, you don't have to be mainstream.

Greg Jackson: Correct.

Jennifer Lee: It's fine.

Because again, your passion's
gonna keep you going.

If it's something you don't
enjoy, and you're only-

Greg Jackson: Yeah

…
Jennifer Lee: doing it for the
listens, which you're not, I bet

you probably even shock yourself
sometimes when you look at the numbers.

Do you ever think it was
gonna get to where it is now?

Greg Jackson: Every podcaster I'm
sure has the like, "Wow, wouldn't

it be amazing if," you know, kind
of the, the dream that it takes off.

What kind of crazy person would start
a podcast and think, "Oh yeah, I'm, I'm

gonna trend in the, the top 1%," right?

I mean, who-

Neil McPhedran: Yeah,
you're the 1% of the 1%.

Greg Jackson: Yes.

Like, I, I would've been insane
or, you know, just unparalleled

ego to have been a, I don't mean
this to, to put myself down, right?

I, I want to note where, where I started.

A, a no-name historian and a professor
at a, well, you know, perfectly

respectable, accredited state institution
in quote-unquote flyover country.

It's supposed to be someone
from Harvard who has this

sort of a thing happen, right?

But this is to the disruption actually
that, that we talked about in Cleveland.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that's right.

I think there's an assumption out
there that a show of your size

would have a big team behind it.

You put a lot of the work in
yourself as you sort of explained-

Greg Jackson: I do.

Neil McPhedran: Upfront.

So there's a lot of, there's
a lot of work that you're

putting in, but you got a team.

What's the rest of your team look like?

Greg Jackson: First of all, the, the
show has grown and, and scaling is

how I've even- kept this thing afloat.

Because remember, I am a professor.

There is a-

Neil McPhedran: Yeah

… Greg Jackson: there's a job-

Neil McPhedran: You got a day job

Greg Jackson: and there's a wife
and kids and all those things.

So the first six months, every
word was written exclusively by me.

And to this day, with very rare
exception I have written the

vast majority of, of words in the
majority of, of those episodes.

And the cold open to every
episode is, is written by me.

That's like my signature on an episode.

But what, what I learned to embrace
slowly, I mean, it took years for me

to really get comfortable with this,
is having, having a very small team.

It's a close-knit team.

And part of it's also that, you
know, people look at a podcast

where, where I'm at, and they assume
I must be just raking in the cash.

There is still a chasm
between me and Joe Rogan.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Greg Jackson: So, you know, it's,
no, there isn't a budget for,

like, 10 writers or something.

But what, what I've got are usually
one or two researchers or writers as,

as things flex and flow part-time.

I work with them by first kind of
saying, "This is the direction I

want the episode to go in." Right?

That I give them the very broad
picture, and then they'll come

back with a detailed outline.

I give my blessing to that.

So we're already, that's
a lot of work right there.

They will then draft I, I do a
cold open, and then I do acts.

So I, there are a lot of academic
ways about how I write the episode,

but then this is where we get to
the delivery piece, and where you

see the, the entertainment part.

So footnoted, there's actually a thesis
in every in every episode, but those

three acts are, are then drafted.

And when I get those,
I then peer review it.

I tear through their footnotes.

I tear through everything because
at the end of the day, o- once

I speak those words into that
microphone, they become mine.

Neil McPhedran: Right.

Greg Jackson: Like, no listener's gonna
go, "Ah, well, that, Prof- Professor

Jackson's not responsible for those
words." No, I'm responsible for them.

They're, they're mine in
a onerous, burdensome way.

And of course, the goal is for me to not
do heavy rewrites, but, but it's there.

And that's where by the time we get
done with an episode, you know, I,

yeah, I've rewritten thousands of
words that were that were drafted.

Yeah, that's, that's kinda the process.

And this, in and of itself, is
very, was very hard for me to

accept as a historian, 'cause we're
trained to basically be monks.

You write your own very singular history.

Embracing this sort of co-authorship
and collaboration was very … I

realize there are other academic fields
where there are, like, nine authors

on an article, and that's very normal.

For, for me, this was a very hard
process to, to get comfortable with.

And by the time it's done, right, after
it's been written, it takes me the

better part of the day to record the
episode, 'cause again, you hear one hour.

What you don't hear is the sentence.

I'm a absolute perfectionist, so when
I, I read that sentence four times

in a row because I didn't like the
intonation or I tripped over a word.

Right?

You, you name it.

So there's usually, … It
takes the better part of a day.

I produce about two hours of raw
material that then gets cut down to

one hour of a one-hour proper episode.

And then there's the sound design.

The, the good people at Airship
who do the sound design, they

spend two days with the episode.

Neil McPhedran: Oh, wow.

Greg Jackson: That is what grew the show.

It was that old-school sound.

Today's version of HTDS, yeah, there
is it's part of why we run the ads

that we do, why we have to monetize.

Producing the show the way it sounds
today with this very professional

Hollywood-grade sound effects bedded
music, bouncing from one speaker to

the next to demonstrate to, to, for
the listener to be able to catch that

there's dialogue between two characters-

Neil McPhedran: That's a lot of work.

That's a lot of post-production.

Greg Jackson: Yeah.

Actually, what I was gonna say is
that I think one of the most important

things … This transcends podcasting,
but it we're talking about podcasting,

I mean, in, in this, in this space.

It's where I've learned this life
lesson, but if you follow all the

rules, you're gonna do something
generic, and it's not gonna break out

I

Neil McPhedran: like that.

Jennifer Lee: Love it.

Greg Jackson: And frankly,
that was me with, with HTDS.

I was told, you know, "Greg, this is, this
is a waste of your time. This is a crazy

pursuit." One, one of my best friends,
he never said anything to that effect,

but he apologized to me years later.

He said, "Greg, I just, I
thought that this would…" I,

I thought, how cute, you know?

And I, I said to him, "Hey, dude,
you owe me no apologies. You weren't

stomping on my dreams just because
you had your doubts. You, you

don't need to apologize for that."

But that is the, the reality.

If you follow all the rules, you will
end up, you know, where everybody

else who follows the rules are.

If you always follow the norm, well,
you're gonna get a normal outcome.

Neil McPhedran: So there's this
push then, Greg, right now in the

podcast space to short form content
as well, clips, clips, clips.

I know, you know, and there's
a lot of shows where that

works, but your show's an hour.

Basically an hour each one.

What, what are your-

Greg Jackson: Last episode was 67 minutes.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

So, what do you think
about short form output?

Are you doing that, or is that
something you're exploring, or do

you feel like, "I'm a long form, I've
got… and I put all this work into

it, and we're sticking with that"?

Greg Jackson: First of all, HTDS is
audio long form, and that's not changing.

This idea that people have short attention
spans and all we can handle is a tweet or

a, or a 30-second reel, that's insulting.

Obviously, our species
is capable of better.

We've, we've done it far longer than,
than social media's been around.

Jennifer Lee: People
just watched The Odyssey.

Isn't that, like, three
hours or something?

Greg Jackson: Yes.

So, I, I think the better question is,
are you not making something that's

good enough to keep people's attention?

Jennifer Lee: I like that.

Greg Jackson: Now, we can talk about,
right, the, the ways technology, dopamine,

hijacking the brain, et cetera, et cetera.

I'm not discounting any of that.

But clearly, if you make something
that is really of quality, people

will sit and give you their attention.

Also, I think that's part of what
distinguishes me more and more.

As everyone rushes to the shiny, bright,
new object, one of the great successes of

HTDS has been my unwillingness to deviate.

Now, that doesn't mean that
I haven't innovated, right?

And I've, and I've tried new things, and,
and there have been shifts on the roadmap.

But I know what my
mission was from day one.

I wanted to bring American listeners,
by and large a deep understanding

of their nation's history.

And I knew how I could best deliver that.

And it was this long form podcast.

Again, I'm an academic.

I'm, I'm not trained
to to dumb things down.

I'm trained to be nuanced
and into the weeds.

So that, that's my strength.

Why on earth would I go
away from my strength?

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Greg Jackson: Now, all of that said,
yes, we've, we've experimented with

taking a snippet from a one-hour
episode and turning it into one of

those little audio posts, right?

But that's about growing
awareness of the podcast.

I want to bring them over to, to the
podcast itself and have them enjoy

listening to over 200 hours of the
American story from the Revolution to,

at this point the heart of World War II.

But I'm not gonna just dart
toward the new shiny object.

I know what I do, I know what I do well,
and I stay in that lane even if I'm

able to look at and explore branching
out, trying those other lanes without

ever, you know, giving up this space.

Jennifer Lee: I, I love
everything that you said.

Going against the norm, obviously.

Let's not do any crime, but,
but, but it, it, it's very true.

And also not going after the shiny object.

I feel like we could do a whole
hour on that because I just feel

like there's so many instances,
not just with podcasting, but with

social media, any type of content.

You have so many great analogies.

I wanna be in your class.

I feel like I'd learn more.

Greg Jackson: Well, you can.

Just listen to History Doesn't Suck.

You're in my class.

Jennifer Lee: There we go.

I love it.

For an academic that is wanting to
launch a show that sits outside of

their, like, formal duties, obviously
this is, again, we'll repeat,

this is on the side of your desk.

What advice would you say to someone
that's wanting to, to start, knowing that

it's a lot of work besides their day job?

Greg Jackson: Well-

Jennifer Lee: Don't do it?

Greg Jackson: No, no, I, I
would say so many things here.

One, you are gonna learn
a lot, so be humble.

I'm, I'm now this very oddly, you know,
like I'm an expert on general US history.

It's a very weird expertise
to have developed, but that's

where I'm at nine years later.

That could not have happened if I
either, one, thought so deeply inside

the box that I wasn't willing to push
into areas I was less comfortable with,

or two, if I was stupid enough to think
just 'cause I teach this in my class,

well, I, I understand it well enough.

I mean, whole eras of US
history like the Gilded Age-

Jennifer Lee: I love the Gilded Age.

Greg Jackson: …that I, I blew over
like so many historians do, 'cause you

get a truncated version of it yourself,
unless that's your area of research.

Um, yeah, now I understand it
a whole lot deeper, and I teach

it a whole lot better, right?

It does translate to my day job.

So humble, get outside of the box
realize that however big of a sacrifice

you think that this is going to be
you're wrong 'cause it's bigger.

Jennifer Lee: There you go.

And- I wanna know from you, I feel
like that's a new podcast, is like you

compare the actual history to the shows
that they're currently doing right now.

So, like, you mentioned the Gilded Age.

I love the show The Gilded Age.

Greg Jackson: Sure.

Jennifer Lee: But I bet you
it's probably not that accurate.

Greg Jackson: so one, yes, but two, and
and this is perhaps, I think I'm out of

step with a number of historians on, on
this, I don't struggle with movies and

TV shows taking liberties and yelling
and screaming and shaking my fist at

the screen, "That's not how it went.

I'm watching this and thinking, "Oh
my goodness, thank you for getting-

society, millions of, of viewers to
realize that this era even happened.

To think about it, to have questions, and
probably pull their phone out and start

Wikipedia-ing things and, and learning.

Jennifer Lee: Well, you do a great job
because people are obviously listening.

Again, it's companion piece
for people that want to

understand more about history.

And I, like I said, I think it's great
that we're seeing a lot more period

dramas because I have noticed in-

Greg Jackson: Absolutely

… Jennifer Lee: chats people are actually
talking about what happens when new money

was starting to take over the old money.

Was that, like, a true thing?

Or, like, what are the
constraints of marriage?

Like, what could a woman
not do during that time?

And, and we're having more of these
deeper discussions, and then we are

following it up with people like
yourself that do the proper research.

I think it's great.

They all work together.

And instead of hiding all this history
in the closet, why not bring it out?

Neil McPhedran: And-

Greg Jackson: Absolutely

… Neil McPhedran: and, and- Bring
it out in a way that doesn't suck

…
Jennifer Lee: doesn't suck.

Greg Jackson: Exactly.

Jennifer Lee: There we go.

We wrap that up.

Greg Jackson: Yep.

Jennifer Lee: Thank you so much, Greg.

Neil McPhedran: Well, that's great.

Jennifer Lee: We could
talk to you forever.

Thank you so much.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

Yeah.

Thanks so much, Greg.

Okay, Jenn, what an awesome
conversation with Greg.

I really appreciated his candor
and certainly learned a lot.

And I think what's funny, in the end,
your last question for other academics

out there who are planning to start
a podcast on the side, I think part

of his honest answer was, was, was,
was really, it isn't on the side.

This is almost like he kept his job as
a professor and at the same time has a

full-time job as a podcaster, too, and I
think that that, that shows you something.

To truly be successful, I think
you can't treat it as some

side hustle or some side gig.

You have to treat it like it's actually
also your full-time job, and I thought

that was a really good insight.

Jennifer Lee: But you gotta be prepared
to do a lot more work in addition to

your, whatever your nine to five is, and
I think a lot of people don't realize

that you can't just do one or the other.

Neil McPhedran: Doesn't
happen just by luck.

You don't just sort of all of a
sudden wake up one morning and

you've got this massive audience.

Also, I think, like, it goes back to his
original reason for being and, and why he,

you know, and why he wanted to do it, and
I think that he has stayed true to that.

Jennifer Lee: You really have to have
a strong why, and we talk about this

all the time, why you're podcasting,
a- and he encompasses all that.

And that's why he is super
successful at what he does, and

he still loves it to this day.

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