Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Marta Perrotta: We had some chapters
from scholars and other from

practitioners, and so we all asked,
answered the question, what kind of

journalism is podcasting becoming?

How does it address the challenges,
uh, facing the news industry,

which is audience disengagement,
sustainability, uh, trust.

The topic of trust in sound media
is something very important.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
studies, a podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium
Podcast Company, and HigherEdPods.com.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm JenniferLee,
founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there, and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: Absolutely Jen.

And on the note of learning from each
other, I'm super excited to let you know

that we have launched the Slack channel
in Higher Ed Pods, so off the back of

the Higher Ed PodCon and the excitement
there and all of the face to face-to-face

community building and meeting each
other, we have launched the Slack channel.

We just did it yesterday morning
and we already have over 20

people in there, so please join.

So if you go to HigherEdPods.com,
and if you join, you become a member,

no charge right now for any of that.

All free.

And if you do that as part of
the signup, you will get an

invite to the Slack channel.

So please go do that and join us.

Jennifer-Lee: Awesome.

I'm excited about this.

This is also very exciting.

We are heading to Italy in this episode.

I love this.

We get to travel all the time.

Neil McPhedran: Well, I
like how you say that, Jen.

It is true.

I'm loving how We have chatted
with a few folks from Europe.

We got a couple more coming up and today
we are chatting with Marta Perrotta.

I know for sure I got that
pronunciation totally, totally wrong,

but I'm trying, Marta, if you're
listening to this, I am trying.

Okay, so Marta is an associate
professor at the University of Roma

Tre, that's in Italy as we talked about.

She's also the director of Roma
Tre Radio, which is the radio

station for the university.

She is among the co-founders of the
International Research Network, which is

funded by the European Commission, and
if that's not enough, she's also research

coordinator, and kind of the force behind
WePod, which is, we produce podcasts.

It's very cool.

It's this cross border collaboration for
podcast producers and it's also funded

and supported by the European Commission.

And we get into that.

We really get into that.

Actually we get into everything
'cause she's doing so much Jen.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm pretty
sure she invited us to Italy too.

So I'm so game.

So let's get into the conversation.

Neil McPhedran: We're going to Italy.

Jennifer-Lee: Going.

Neil McPhedran: Well, hello Marta.

It's so nice to have
you here with us today.

Thanks for joining us.

Marta Perrotta: Thank
you for, uh, inviting me.

Neil McPhedran: So, Marta,
you're associate professor

at Roma Tre University.

So maybe before we jump into all the
amazing stuff you're doing in the

world of podcasting, why don't you
just sort of tell us a little bit about

what you teach at Roma Tre University.

Marta Perrotta: I teach radio and
television, and I teach digital

media, and the one is for the BA and
the second one is for the MA. And

also I have responsibility of the
college radio station, Roma Tre Radio.

Also, I am, um, a deputy
director for the communication.

Uh, so I'm also into
institutional communication and

promotion for the university.

And I have a background in
podcast studies and in, uh,

television and uh, radio studies.

So as a media scholar mostly I am
interested into the, uh, digital

disruption for broadcasting and also
the sound part of the broadcasting

media is very much interesting for me.

And also I have a line of research
on women and radio, and I focus on

podcast as a disruption for radio.

So it's all connected to, to
the production studies, uh,

approach I give to my research.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that.

Digital disruption of radio.

That's, that's my favorite.

This is like what Neil knows I love
to nerd out, because I always say that

podcasting is the rebirth of radio.

We're doing a lot of the same things.

But podcasting is the vessel, and the
vessel is a little bit more global

than opposed to radio, which it is more
localized and community filled because

you are tied to a terrestrial radio tower.

So I was like, oh, Marta, I'm excited
to talk to you about this today because

this is one of my favorite topics.

And the fact that you're teaching
at a university, I always say,

and we had someone on earlier too,
to talk about this, it's like,

broadcasting programs are changing.

Some schools are doing it
better than others, and

there's just so much potential.

This is what makes me excited.

Marta Perrotta: I love to talk about
that because I love to connect my

different fields of research and
also to make some practice of that.

Because in production studies
for broadcasting and podcasting

is very important to be part
of the production as well.

Jennifer-Lee: And podcasting is
really unique in the fact when we

get to the university space is,
yes, anyone can start podcasting.

That's nice thing about it.

But it's, we're kind of getting into
this area of podcasting is still very

young and so a lot of people are not
necessarily training in podcasting.

Like you can teach yourself.

There's a lot of YouTube videos
out there and things like that.

A lot of people come from public
relations or uh, marketing

backgrounds, which is awesome.

But I think we're starting to see
now that you do need some other

skills, and it's not just mic skills.

It's not just storytelling
skills, it's production skills.

It's a lot of different hats.

So I love the fact that these
programs are starting to think

about that because there is no
traditional education for podcasting.

There is for broadcasting.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah, and you can
borrow a lot from other medias

like, uh, movie, like television.

It's all the fields of the production
in creative industries can teach

a little bit about podcasting.

And that's also why when we think
about podcasts, we know that it has a

potential for other adaptation and to,
to be this starting brick for a very

big construction in content production.

So it's really good to be focused
on that, but also to know that

the multimedia, intermedial
production can grow around that.

Neil McPhedran: I think, and Jen, you were
kind of alluding to it, but the journalism

side, which is not my background.

I've come to, you know, as we've talked
about before on the show, I've come to

podcasting through the world of digital
marketing and digital content production.

But the journalism side is where
you've, you've come from, Jen.

And Marta, that's your expertise.

So specifically, you've actually put
out or published a journal called

Podcast in the Future of Journalism.

That's the English
translation version of it.

And I connected with you through
Carl Hartley, who was on a couple

of episodes ago, and he, I believe,
wrote a chapter in, in your book.

So this sounds super interesting.

I'd love to hear more about your new
journal that you've published and

maybe sort some of the findings about
podcasting in the future of journalism.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah,
it's a book, actually.

I edited the book after a call.

I launched at the end of 2023.

This book and this call is
part of a big project we have

been did with my university and
uh, selected media in Europe.

Because we participated into a
bid for the creative Europe fund

that was going to fund projects in
digital transformation of journalism.

And me, together with representatives
of, uh, big and small media in Europe.

One of them is PRISA, the group.

PRISA is the group of the EL PAÍS, the,
the newspaper in Spain, Chora Media,

which is a podcast producer in Italy,
Europod, the podcast producer in Belgium.

We together developed a project
of co-production of podcasting for

media outlets and, uh, specifically
for the journalistic part of them.

My goal in this project as well, I was the
only, uh, academic person inside, was to

study the process of the co-production in
a cross-cultural situation for podcasting.

And that's particularly, um,
interesting for Europe, which is

a multilingual, uh, continent.

And also the space for connected
and related productions in

podcasting is not so common.

I mean, it has been, it is for
television, uh, for movies of course,

but not for radio and podcasting.

Uh, all the experiments, uh, in radio
have been very hard to be brought on.

So we tried to develop a project of
journalistic co-production in order to see

how journalistic content can be adapted
in different countries, but also develop

and conceived in different countries
together in order that journalists

work together and then, uh, produce
podcasts in their own languages, which is

something really is not so common, right?

At least the way, before the
call, we counted like 10 or 15

examples all over the world.

So as part of this big project that we
have been winning in, uh, late, uh, 2022,

and that started in 2023, I launched
the call for, um, academic reflection

on the topic of the transformation of
journalism practices through podcasting.

And this was, uh, not only focused
on cross border co-productions,

of course it was, um, focused on
several, uh, experiences all over

the world where, uh, we can see how
podcasting a, a brought a significant

transformation in journalistic practices.

Uh, because it has been changing how
stories are told, how they're distributed

and how they engage, uh, with audiences.

So we keep Serial as a
benchmark, of course, for

investigative series or The Daily.

So these well known examples, I mean,
they, they have market turning points

and, uh, so I wanted to build something
and to raise academics around the topic

of how has been, uh, podcast transforming
journalism in this 20 years, at least in

the last 10 within the big WePod project.

That's the, the name of the
project, of the co-production.

We edited this collection of 11
chapters that is open access.

You can, um, download it for
free and it's, uh, it's there.

Or the chapter of Carl,
Carl is there, of course.

Neil McPhedran: We'll put a link
in our show notes to it for sure.

Marta Perrotta: Yes, please.

Please do it.

And so it's also interesting because
we had some chapters from scholars

and other from practitioners.

And so we all, uh, asked, answer
the question, what kind of

journalism is podcasting becoming?

How does it address the challenges,
uh, facing the news industry, which

is, um, audience disengagement,
sustainability, uh, trust.

The topic of trust in sound media
is something very important.

We have in the EBU, in European
Broadcasting Union research, every

year we see that the most trusted
journalist is the one of radio.

So it's a sound media that is
more trusted than the visual one.

And that link was very important to
have this same question about podcast

journalism, which is sound and which is,
has to be clear, has to be quick, has

to be simple for the audience, uh, but
also can be closer to young listeners,

young audiences, which are more and
more detached from consuming news.

So all these topic came together.\
Across the various chapters.

And we have also some analysis
of co-productions and also some

reflections about models of
journalism around the globe.

So it's, I think it's, even if it's, it
started in the European project is more,

uh, global for, uh, as a perspective.

Jennifer-Lee: I think what you just
hit on was like, so important because I

think that's a lot of thing is everyone's
like, oh, radio is dying, TV is dying.

The news is dying.

It's not, journalism is not dying.

We're still gonna need the news.

It's just transferring to
where your audience is.

So that's the thing is I think what you
guys are doing with WePod and everything

is you're finding your audience.

And again, I think that's a
huge discussion, and this is

gonna be with it with anything.

Because podcasting is not regulated
it is very hard when you come

from an industry that is so
regulated like the news industry.

So it's like you're finding that fine
balance of all these broadcasters that

are trusted are needing jobs because
they're getting cut left, right, and

center on the traditional stations.

And they have something to say and
bringing them onto podcast is great,

maybe with the accreditation 'cause
sometimes BBC and, and other ones do

like this, under those banners, but
then it's like, how do you weed out,

you know, Joe that starts his own
podcast and he talks about politics

and maybe he's swayed to one side.

Marta Perrotta: Yes.

Uh, yeah, I mean we, in the project we
have, uh, produced six co-productions

and it's really, um, interesting to
see how different distinct national

ecosystems, national context, and
national ideas of what the headaches

of some kind of journalism and also,
the practices of journalism can mix and

can find a balance, as you were saying.

I think that one of the best experiences
of this project has been the last

podcast that has been released, which
is, uh, called The Right Kind of Family.

It's big production in seven languages.

Among them there is English and
French of course, but also Hungarian,

Polish, German, Italian, and Spanish.

And it's really a work, it's a
co-production of four journalists

that have been traveling and
reporting together across Europe.

It, it took, uh, one year and a half to
be ready from the first meeting for the

developing the concept until the last
episode release that was last Tuesday.

And it's really an example of how in
the field of podcasting even if you

have rules in each country, and also you
have tradition, uh, practice tradition

in, in every, in every context, and you
need to look for different balances and

different, uh, also way of cooperation.

And it's, uh, it has been the, also the
topic of this, this, this production

is really, is really, uh, delicate.

It's really, uh, sensible.

It's, it's about, uh, female
bodies and the policies about, uh,

reproduction in all the countries.

Even if there are no, um, explicit
politics in every country about that,

it's the, the lobbying around the body
control, the main theme of the production.

So the journalists traveled from
Spain to Hungary, from Italy, uh,

to Poland, uh, and they really
discovered connections that are not so

evident, uh, in the public discourse.

So it's really something
that only a podcast could do

for the time that it took.

Also, there is a European grant,
uh, behind that, uh, it has been

funded and has been produced with
the idea of really, uh, engaging the

audience into the very relevant topic.

And, uh, I think it's gonna be huge.

I, I don't know any listening, uh, trends
yet because it's a, it was just released.

But I, I hope that it will be
listened a lot in all the, in

the language is, uh, is produced.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

I'm looking at it right now.

We'll, and we'll definitely put
a, a link to this as well too.

So I think this is fascinating, and you're
right, like it points out how podcasting

is such a unique medium to be able to
tackle something like this cross border.

It would take a while.

There's a lot of journalistic
requirements, a lot of journalistic

work, so the, the time continuum to put
something like this together doesn't

necessarily work as well with radio.

But then this, the fact that it's
produced then in seven languages and

you're identifying this political
network, what's called the political

network of values, just reading it there.

This sort of global network of
conservative and far right organizations

that is sort of subversively, you know
that it's there but we don't see it

in all different countries and all
the different languages or whatever.

And so this is a really
interesting medium.

So the WePod project is really fascinating
and I guess there's so much there.

You've got all of the, you know, you've
got the partnership of all the production

organizations, the funding, 'cause
that's required for, for things like

big journalistic projects like this too.

So, there's a lot of podcasts in there.

It, it's super interesting.

Marta Perrotta: It also
has an IP marketplace.

The website has developed a platform
for a IP marketplace of podcasting,

that is open to every producer.

So everyone can put content and, and
just say it's open for adaptation,

for the selling to the rights of
the podcast to be a, to become a

book, or to do a translation or
adaptation to other languages.

Uh, it's also a place where
European podcasters can meet and

can grab some tools for production.

There is a tool, uh, box to, to be
explored to help, uh, producers,

uh, from conceptualization into the
scene of the rights and the, all the

tools and help podcasters in, uh, in
producing all the pipeline, the podcast.

And also, um, we would like to launch the
European Association of Podcast Creators.

So it's coming more and more complex, but
as a place where to start doing pressure

on the commission to, uh, offer more space
in the, in the policies, in the European

policies because it's no longer a niche.

Uh, it's a central part of how
people engage with, uh, news or

entertainment and public life as well.

So it, uh, is been raising question of
ethics, question of, uh, sustainability.

And we really need Europe to
be aware of that besides all

the other creative industries.

So, it's, uh, it's, it's one of the
main task of this project, and only the

media can be so heavy in that because
as a university I can give support

with research, but the pressure on the
politics is not so my job at the moment.

But with the association that has,
um, academics and producers and media,

maybe this is more easy in there.

It's more effective.

Jennifer-Lee: And the ethics part,
again, just always fascinates me.

'Cause I always talk about journalistic
integrity and is it something

that you even teach your students?

Because it's something that
everyone needs to know.

But it's so funny because in podcasting it
actually doesn't really happen sometimes.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah.

You know, I have a team at Roma Tre
and I don't teach journalism and I

don't teach to future journalists, I
mean, the ethics and all the production

processes and in journalism, because I'm
more focused on entertainment format.

So I have a colleague that does so,
and we, we happen to have, uh, lessons

together and we, we start from very
famous examples of journalistic podcasting

from Serial, of course, to Caliphate,
to other cases that can be very, um,

interesting in terms of the way the
journalist is included in the narration.

But yeah, students are really interested
in, uh, learning and also in listening,

and it's something that I, I have
been teaching radio since 2003.

And I've been, uh, witnessing a very,
uh, incredible transformations in

terms of listening skills of the, of
the students and also in terms of the

interest into sound, into the language of
radio and podcasting through podcasting.

So now in the radio at the university,
we have a lot of people that come

because they listen to podcast
and then they start to do radio.

So it's uh, really interesting
this, um, I mean this catchy side of

podcasting, uh, because it's cool now.

But also it's interesting how the students
discover, for instance, very old programs

of the radio, of the seventies, of the
eighties, and they realize how much they

have to get off with the history of radio.

Neil McPhedran: I wanna circle
back to the WePod project.

I think I would encourage everyone
listening to go have a look at this.

There's, you know, so you've got all the
podcasts that are in there, then there's

a toolbox, there's a knowledge section.

And then you mentioned the IP
marketplace, but then there's

also a talent section for sharing.

So people, I would imagine they could,
uh, like audio engineers could put

their, their services or whatever.

But the thing that's really interesting
is this notion of, you know, we

were The Right Kind of Family is the
example here, but that is in, as you

mentioned, is in 1, 2, 7 languages.

And what's interesting about that
is you can click through to each

version, each version has its own RSS
feed in Apple and so on and so forth.

But then they're all interconnected and
I, I think this is a really interesting

project because I think we as podcasters
kinda live in our language silo.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah.

Neil McPhedran: In our
feed, in our one feed.

And what this is doing
is creating this network.

So it's one big project and one big
journalism focus as we've discussed.

So it all comes together on the website,
but then each one lives separately

at the end of the line on Apple
and Spotify and so on and so forth.

I just think like there must be a lot
that you sort of learned about doing that,

and it just really opens it up, I think.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

The, the idea was to give each
partner its space as for, um,

everyone has it's, uh, language silo
as you, as you mentioned before.

But it's very important to show
the connections to the audience.

Because if you listen to them, you
understand from each language that

there is collaborative work behind that.

Besides the funding, and besides
all the names and all the

creatives and all the projects.

You don't know as a audience because
I'm into, so much deep into the

introduction, but I would love to make
interviews with audience to understand

what they get from this global, at
least cross-cultural conceptualization.

If there is some idea of international
inquiry, international, because

actually I prefer to listen to my native
language version, is Italian of course.

And from that I feel, uh, that is told
in a way that speaks to me directly,

in the way a good podcast does.

Always though as, uh, uh, finding
connections to our daily lives.

Uh, and I, I think that this
is an effect that this in every

version and it's really important.

Yeah, so from a listening point of
view, it would be great at the end

of the project in August, uh, 2025
to find out the sides of the audience

of all the podcasts, putting together
all the data of the different media.

Neil McPhedran: That's what
I was thinking about too.

That part is super fascinating.

But it's also just for these big
journalistic, like you're right,

like you want, like I would wanna
listen to the English version.

You're gonna wanna listen to the Italian
version, like some in France is gonna

wanna listen to the French version.

But it's an important journalistic
project that is one, it's the output

from this collaborative cross border,
cross-cultural journalistic project,

but at the same time, the end listener
is consuming it in the language that's

natural to them and there's, culturally
would be sort of relevant to them as well.

It just from a journalistic perspective,
it really opens up the aperture for

opportunity for these cross border and
cross-cultural endeavors that I think

that instead of getting caught into your
own little world and you're translating

and you know, and so on and so forth.

So maybe before we go, you also are a
podcaster and as we sort of set off the

top, I know this is of interest to Jen,
is women in podcasting and women in radio.

Just maybe tell us a little bit about
own personal podcasting, uh, adventure.

Marta Perrotta: Yeah.

It has been a project for the sensory
of radio in Italy last year, 2024,

the public service commissioned an
investigation on the female, uh, leading

roles in the radio of the, the sensory.

It's really hard to, to
find them on the books.

So besides the project of the podcast, I
was writing a book about that actually.

I started work 13 years ago actually.

But yeah, I had the chance
to dig into the archives.

Uh, that is so interesting and important.

And I picked out 10 women.

Some of them were totally unknown
by the, uh, literature and, uh,

they had done hours and hours of
documentaries, of programs, inventing

also new formats, going around with
the recorder, the portable recorder

in the sixties, cross, uh, countries.

I told the story of, uh, one
of them, I just mentioned her

because she's, uh, amazing.

She was born in 1930 and she has been
traveling to Australia with Nigra for

five weeks on a boat with migrants,
Italian migrants to Australia.

And she has been doing a reportage
that if you listen to that,

uh, now you just have shivers.

It's, uh, it's, uh, it's so modern.

So yeah, it's really speaks of today, of
all the problems that, uh, people face

they leave the house for going somewhere
else where they feel they have more luck.

It's a 10 episode podcast with women
that were not so famous and so well

known, but who did a lot of, uh, work and
programs in radio, in public radio mostly.

Uh, the public service asked me
to put some very well known women

like singers or, uh, presenters in
television, uh, that had a, had a

background in radio that no one knows.

So the besides, they're known,
they are very well known.

People like Mina, or which is very, very
famous, uh, all over the world, uh, and

their, the archives, uh, gave, gave me the
chance to pick up very, uh, interesting

excerpts of, of their work in, in the
radio, which, I mean, it was a very

interesting way to look at this 100 years.

And give justice and restore.

Big job they did.

And also to understand how the model of
a female host has been built, because

today, of course, that are different,
but before there were more men than

women in, uh, hosting the radio shows.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I
think that's, that's great.

Well, thanks for sharing that
with us as well too then.

That sounds like a, a really amazing
project, especially using archives of

audio and bringing that back to life.

Jennifer-Lee: And that's a
whole, like that's a whole deeper

conversation as women in radio
because it's not even that long ago.

Like I graduated from radio school
almost like 15 years ago, and I remember

one of my male teachers came up to me.

And he said, it is still
a male dominated industry.

He said, do not let it stop you.

He says, there are gonna be
men that are in your path.

And he said, just keep going.

And I thought that was really cool
that he was like super supportive.

But that wasn't that long ago.

And the fact that he's still
telling female students to

like push past the boundary.

And even like just, it wasn't even
that long ago, they were telling

us in radio school that women were
only allowed certain day parts.

They had this thing too for music
radio that like if a woman's song

came, you couldn't necessarily
have a woman off the back and they

couldn't have women songs together.

Like it was just, it's so fascinating.

And it was interesting
'cause I read an article too.

And this is why I am glad in
the university space and, and

a lot of the people that we do
interview, are amazing women.

Not that, I love the men, but
it's the fact that they were

saying still that podcasting is
still a male dominated industry.

And what is it?

I don't know.

Maybe, maybe women don't
necessarily wanna speak on the air.

Are we given the opportunities?

Obviously podcast is a little bit
different because anyone can come out

with a microphone, but it is still
male dominated, like broadcasting.

Neil McPhedran: It is true.

Jen, I think you, you raised a really
good point, and I think we still

see it in podcasting if you think
about the, the bro podcasts, right?

Like it's prevalent and persistent.

And so Marta, you're doing amazing work.

Just encourage you to keep going and
not only your academic study with female

in the industry, but the cross border,
the cross-cultural, the cross language

work that you're doing as well too.

It's commendable and thank you so
much for joining us today and telling

us a little bit more about it.

We'll definitely put links
in our, uh, show notes.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Marta Perrotta: Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Neil McPhedran: Well, Jen, I know
I say this every single time,

but that was a great interview.

I learned so much from Marta.

And it just continues to blow my mind how
after two years, we just keep talking to

new people just doing so many cool things.

And I love how lately we've just been like
really reaching outside of North America

and learning what is going on in Europe.

Although we do need to figure out, we
need to talk to people out there in Asia.

Hello.

Talk to us if you want get
interviewed, and Africa, you

know, we definitely need that too.

Jennifer-Lee: And more Canadians because
we actually don't talk to many at all.

Neil McPhedran: Well, we
got a few Canadians coming.

Jennifer-Lee: I feel like We don't talk
to, we don't talk to our people ever.

Neil McPhedran: True that, that is true.

But anyway, our conversation
with Marta was amazing.

Oh, and wait, I gotta give a shout
out to Carl Hartley, who again, has

introduced us to someone amazing.

And you need to check out Marta's book,
uh, or her journal that she has published,

which Carl Hartley has a chapter there in.

And while that WePod, what a
great organization and project.

Jennifer-Lee: Something that's
very international and I love it.

So we're learning so many
new ideas from everyone.

And like you said, Neil, every
time we think we've got it figured

out, somebody else comes out
with a new part to podcasting.

So very exciting times.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

I can't wait to go to Italy.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, we're
telling Marta we're coming.

Neil McPhedran: Now that we've done
the live event at PodCon, I feel

like we just now need to go do,
do a live, live tour in Europe.

Jennifer-Lee: Oh, let's do it.

Booking the flights.

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