Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Sarah Holtan: I wanted a passion
project where I could have full

autonomy, full creative control.

I wanted to choose my
guests, choose my topics.

I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff
that it takes when you work for a company.

It just appealed to me, and in so many
of my other work aspects of life, I

do have to work under other people.

And this was just a great way to
say, okay, I can be creative on

my own and really stretch myself.

That's why I call myself the lone wolf.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran.

Founder of Podium Podcast
Company and Higher Ed Pods.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there, and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: You got it, Jen,
and we've been talking about it for

the last few episodes and I'm gonna
bring it up again, but we've got

our Slack channel on Higher Ed Pods.

Jennifer-Lee: It's a hip
place to be right now.

Neil McPhedran: Sign up to be a
member and part of that process.

You can join the Slack channel.

So we would love to see you there.

Jen, today we are chatting about,

Jennifer-Lee: Being a lone wolf.

Neil McPhedran: Being a
lone wolf in podcasting.

That's right.

That's right.

Jennifer-Lee: In Higher Education Forest.

Neil McPhedran: That's right.

We are chatting today with Sarah Holtan.

Sarah is the Assistant Provost of
Academic Affairs at Carol University,

where she oversees the general
education program, institutional

accreditation, and study abroad.

Sarah is also the host and sort
of everything behind the podcast

called Get Down to College Business.

What a great name.

Uh, and her podcast is really
specifically about addressing how

colleges can apply proven business
tactics for operational excellence.

And we said the lone wolf thing off the
top 'cause she called herself a lone wolf.

And we get into that
actually in this episode.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I really like that
she gives us techniques for if you are

gonna be someone starting a podcast
at a higher education institute, and

maybe you're having to do it on your
own without support for the first

bit and she also goes into like what
are the legalities around it, so.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think it's a
good episode 'cause we sort of get into

some of the nitty gritty of having a
higher education podcast that is separate

from your day job and some of the
advantages and disadvantages of that.

But Sarah actually was at a different
institution for a number of years

where she started the podcast,
again, separate from the institution,

and then when she moved to Carroll
University, she took it with her.

So I think this is a great conversation
and super applicable to a whole

chunk of higher education podcasters
who have a podcast or are thinking

about launching a podcast separate
from their University Day job.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

So let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Let's go.

Hello, Sarah.

Great to see you again, and thanks
for joining us here today for

the Continuing Studies Podcast.

Sarah Holtan: It's great to be invited
and I'm looking forward to our discussion.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm excited that we're
finally interviewing people that we met

in Chicago because it's one thing to meet
them face to face and then interview them.

We've been cold calling for the last
year, which is great, and we made

lots of good friends on the way, but
it's always nice to meet in person,

then lure you on to the podcast.

Sarah Holtan: I love that
the three of us were able to

connect at the Higher Ed PodCon.

That was such an incredible
way to grow my network.

Sounds like it worked
the same way for you.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and you
were one of our speakers.

Can you tell us a little bit about
what you spoke about that day?

Sarah Holtan: Right, so Chris Lewis, who
is another higher ed podcaster, he and I

had a joint session and we talked a bit
about the art of strategic storytelling

and how to ask questions of your guests.

So particularly targeted toward the type
of format where you bring in a guest and

you're really trying to get at a topic
a little bit more in depth and how to

use storytelling techniques to kind of
pull the best out of your guest and make

you both shine and make it interesting
for the audience that it's, you know,

it's natural, conversational, fun.

One of our biggest techniques really,
that we kept talking about, which came

up the whole day of other presenters
too, was just the art of listening.

And I think you guys probably
noticed that too, right?

Like you have to be so present when
you're interviewing someone because

you even zone out for a moment, they
could say something that really you

should have followed up on, and you just
don't wanna miss those opportunities

when you're doing an interview.

Jennifer-Lee: Listening is the
biggest skill that people don't

do when doing an interview.

I know we've, we broke
these rules on our podcast.

I've definitely broken them throughout
my career, but I also would agree that,

and I would like your opinion on this,
don't ask, tell us about your journey.

Don't ask, tell us about yourself.

Like everybody does it on a podcast.

Sarah Holtan: So do you want
me to tell you about myself?

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, but see
that would've been a great way

to lead into, it's different.

So take it away.

Sarah Holtan: I'd be happy to.

So actually, I love that you guys allow
your guest to frame it up for themselves.

That way they get to kind of shape
and influence like what's put out

there versus just a standard bio.

So I'll start with why I was
invited here, which is that I

am a podcast host and producer.

I have a podcast titled Get
Down to College Business.

It's intended for college leaders who
are looking to upskill themselves.

And so they're looking for bite-sized,
accessible pieces of information that

share lessons from other higher ed
leaders and business leaders as well who

have figured something out or maybe have
thought about or operated differently.

And so the topics range anything from
employee wellbeing to change management

to using AI in your everyday workload
to blowing up your budget model.

So how do we do our work
better in higher ed?

And then these other hats that
I wear, I also have a day job.

I'm an assistant provost at
Carroll University, which is in a

suburb of Milwaukee in Wisconsin.

Right now I'm overseeing the
general education program as well

as our institutional accreditation.

Then beyond that, I get
to wear another hat.

I co-own construction supporting
businesses, and so that was my family

business that I grew up in, and
now I'm an owner and on the board.

And so I still kept a foot in
business, which I think all my

previous careers, including my first
career in the media, kind of came

together into this one podcast.

And so that's the easy, short
version of who I am and my journey.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

It's funny, I find, especially in
the podcast space, we end up chatting

with folks like yourself who are
doing a lot of different things.

So many people we've interviewed
that are doing a bunch of things.

And so when did you launch
Get Down to College Business?

Sarah Holtan: So the first
episodes aired in January of 2023.

So as we're recording this in
mid to late August, 2025, it's

been about two and a half years.

Little more than that.

I've got, I think, 60
some episodes published.

I do twice a month.

That's about what I can handle.

It's kind of an on the
side thing, which I love.

It's my passion, but it's hard
for me to do more than that.

So I committed to the two per month
with a couple of summer hiatuses, and

that's been a good cadence for me.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

And when you say committed, you
committed to yourself to do that?

Sarah Holtan: I did commit to myself.

There's no one I report to, so
I appreciate that distinction.

I think it was more to my
audience though, too, so they

would feel like it was reliable.

And when I do take a break, I try
to inform them on my social media,

like, I'm gonna dip out for a minute.

I'll be back at this time.

So that anyone who I guess really cares
could find out that I'm coming back.

I think that's one of the things that
I've learned about podcasts is like

you can get really into them and all
of a sudden they just stop and you

have no idea if they're coming back.

And I always get sad.

I'm like, are they coming back?

I don't know.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, that's something that
we talk about all the time is making sure

that you tell your listeners where you're
going because compared to other mediums

that we do, podcasting is very loyal.

Like you have a bond with them.

We wanna know where you go.

Sarah Holtan: Agreed.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

No, I agree.

And I appreciate that.

I said committed to yourself
and you expanded that to

committing to the audience.

And I think you're totally right and
we say this, we've said this on this

podcast, but we also say it to our other
podcasts that we are involved with.

It's really about communicating to
the audience and it's setting up

that cadence and sticking to it,
and then if you're gonna vary from

it, it's just really about having
that conversation with the audience.

Saying, this is what's happening.

I'm going for two weeks, or I'm just gonna
have to do it every three weeks for the

time being, you know, so on and so forth.

I think as long as you're
communicating to the audience, I

think, and that's a really good tip.

Sarah, when we were chatting with you,
you referred to yourself, and I thought

this was super interesting, as a lone
wolf podcaster in higher education.

Do I have that right?

Can you sort of unpack
that a little bit for us?

Sarah Holtan: Sure.

Absolutely.

I did say that.

I do feel like a lone wolf, only
because my podcast, while it's about

higher education and I work in higher
education, the two are separated.

And so I don't have an institutional
podcast that I host and produce.

I chose deliberately to do a
separate one and separate it out

from the institution where I work.

I did that primarily because
podcasting is my passion.

I wanted a passion project where I could
have full autonomy, full creative control.

I wanted to choose my
guests, choose my topics.

I didn't wanna have to do all the stuff
that it takes when you work for a company.

It just appealed to me and in so many
of my other work aspects of life, I

do have to work under other people.

And this was just a great way to
say, okay, I can be creative on

my own and really stretch myself.

That's why I call myself the
lone wolf, is because the two are

not tied together, even though
there is overlap in the content.

Jennifer-Lee: And this is becoming
more common even with people doing

things for their own personal brand
and their passion projects and stuff.

A lot of companies and institutions are
starting to crack down more onto like what

you're doing, what you're broadcasting.

Do you ever feel like you kind of
have to watch what you say even

though podcasting is not regulated
because it could reflect on future

job opportunities or your current one?

Sarah Holtan: Jen, I'm gonna answer
that from a general perspective.

So communication's my
discipline and my background.

I watch what I say all
the time no matter what.

So I think we're coming of age in
an environment, in a culture, in

which words matter more than ever.

And there you do wanna
get your words right.

So I think I would watch what
I say no matter what, even

if I didn't have a day job.

I will say though, that.

It's only been beneficial to
understand the priorities of higher ed.

That helps me understand what kinds
of topics should be addressed.

Where do colleges maybe need
some more solutions or ideas?

So I think it's been more helpful.

I will say though, that.

In order to keep things separate and just
to protect anybody, I do have a waiver

that my guests sign that just simply
says that it's Sarah and Sarah's company

that I'm speaking to, that I understand
that this is separate from a formal

organization other than Sarah and her
company, and that they understand that.

It just helps 'cause I have my
podcast under an LLC, so it creates

a layer of separation that I
think is just smart with anything.

I mean, that's just how people
operate businesses nowadays.

When podcasting becomes more
heavily regulated, I think then

we'll just put more control
measures into protect all of us.

It's a two-way protection.

It's not just protecting me from someone
or someone being protected from me.

I think it's a mutual scenario.

Jennifer-Lee: I think that's so important
and it's something that we don't really

discuss a lot because even though a lot
of people are talking to their podcast is

from the institution, a lot of them have
never talked about any type of waiver

or anything that they've had to sign.

And I know it's becoming a more
popular thing to do in podcasts,

but it's great to hear that.

Sarah Holtan: And really my goal is to
make everybody more informed, everyone

should sound good at the end of the day.

I've never gone into an
interview thinking, Ooh, I'm

gonna get them on something.

That is just not my style in general.

I'm here to give back and have an impact.

I want my guests to sound
as good as they can.

I want me to sound as good as
I can and for people to listen

and enjoy listening to it.

I'm not a shock jock type at all.

Neil McPhedran: Fair enough.

I, I am interested in digging
further into this separation of

your day job versus your podcast.

I think this is really interesting
and is super applicable for a

portion of our audience for sure.

One thing I thought was interesting,
and I think what I heard you say

was that although your podcast is
separate from your assistant provost

role, it is quite aligned though
from what you do actually there.

You mentioned that sort of an
advantage of doing the podcast.

You've learned things from it or
you've had conversations from it,

so on and so forth that have played
into your role as assistant provost.

Sarah Holtan: Yeah, absolutely.

It's actually both ways.

So I think my topic ideas are often
sparked, not always, but often

sparked by what I'm seeing at work.

Like, gosh, what, when do
we change a budget model?

When is the best time to
change a budget model?

I don't even know.

So then I'll start looking at it
and then all of a sudden I'll find

someone who's written about it,
posted something really interesting.

I'll reach out to them and
then I'll learn about it.

So like that's an example of an upcoming
podcast episode that I'm working on.

It's like, yeah, I don't know under what
conditions it's a good idea to change a

budget model versus when you shouldn't
and just stay with your status quo.

And so I feel like it's my
own professional development.

But I don't know that I would've had
that topic idea without my day job

because it had come up in meetings
and people were talking about it, and

I just didn't know enough about it.

So I do think it ends up being like a
symbiotic relationship where I understand

maybe what could make a good topic.

Then I start investigating it.

Then I learn from my guest and whatever
they wrote or whatever they talked about,

and then I can bring it back and utilize
it and think about like, okay, maybe

when I'm in the next meeting, I'll be
able to have a more informed opinion.

Neil McPhedran: And then when you launched
the, the podcast, you were actually at a

different school at that time, correct?

Maybe you could take us
through that process.

I wanted to launch a podcast.

I wanted to keep it
separate from my day job.

Maybe help us go through
that process with you.

'Cause I think there's probably
a couple things we can learn.

Sarah Holtan: So in my last institution, I
worked there for 22 years, and in my 21st

year I got to cherry pick my projects.

I was special advisor to the president.

I also had a teaching rank and title.

I just had the best job.

But I'll tell you, when you're
at a place for more than 20

years, you have shortcuts.

And you have social capital, so you
get your job done fairly efficiently.

You know who does what,
how to get your job done.

And I just felt like even though
my job was really good, I had

more in me and I was like, where
do I put this extra energy?

And so then I was starting
to get into podcasts and I'm

like, I couldn't maybe do this.

I should do it.

And then that's self-doubt kicks in and
you're like, well, maybe I shouldn't.

Maybe I should wait.

Maybe my institution will do it.

And then the more I thought
about it, the more I was like,

this is just go big or go home.

And if you fail and you'll
be fine, you'll recover.

No one knows who you are so your
reputation isn't much to risk, right?

And I just felt like if I could do
it myself I could do it exactly under

my vision, and I think that's what
I was actually craving at that time.

Although I don't know if I would've
been as self-aware of that as I am

now, but it was like I needed my own
passion project in order to really

make that vision come to life.

As I mentioned earlier, when you
work on teams for someone else, it's

just a different level of autonomy.

Everything gets checked, triple
checked, kicked around the

can, modified, compromised,
whatever, and that's good too.

That works for many large sized projects
and it's totally appropriate, but I felt

like I could be a little speedboat and
maybe get through things faster and kind

of just do it and just my own challenge.

So I think it was for
personal reasons really.

I also really wanted to start
building my own personal brand.

I am not old enough to start
thinking seriously about retirement,

but it is on the horizon.

And so what kind of fun things could I do
in retirement that sets me up for that?

How do I build my network
beyond my current institution?

That's the best, I mean, I
wouldn't have met you two if I

hadn't done, you know, a podcast.

People like you and some of the
other people in our Ed Up community,

they just wouldn't have been in
my radar if I had stayed within

the confines of an institution.

So it was really just personal preference.

Jennifer-Lee: And you
mentioned the Ed Up community.

Can you tell our listeners a
little bit about what that is

and why you're a part of it?

Sarah Holtan: Okay.

So there's two names you need to know.

When we think about the Ed Up community,
it's Elvin Freytes and Joe Sallustio.

They're the co-founders
of the Ed Up experience.

They built it from scratch.

It's an amazing podcast.

Launching into different kinds of media.

They basically started from ground
up and then they created this

community of other podcasts that
they've invited in to be a part of an

affiliation or association with 'em.

And so they invited me into their
network about a year and a half ago.

So I've been part of their association
for about that long, and it's

been wonderful 'cause they open
doors, we support each other, we

take our challenges to each other.

Like, Hey, how would you guys solve this?

How would you work through that?

So again, it's another community that
I don't think I would've ever had in my

network if I hadn't done this podcast.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Yeah, great guys, obviously.

Gotten to know them pretty well
over organizing pod with them.

Jennifer-Lee: So they can do anything.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, absolutely.

I've experienced that firsthand.

Jennifer-Lee: For anyone that
doesn't know they were your partners

in crime for creating PodCon.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, exactly.

We met them online and we worked together
online for months and months and months.

It was really cool to meet
them in real life in Chicago.

So when you were launching your
podcast, you did go to your institution

and said, Hey, I'm doing this.

So maybe just sort of go
through that process for us.

Sarah Holtan: Yeah, so I did approach
my supervisor at the time and said,

Hey, this is what I'm thinking.

Here's why I plan to do it.

Here's how I will protect both of
us, which is to put it under an LLC.

I'm gonna have waivers.

They all knew me enough, I think,
to have the trust to say, oh,

this could only benefit us.

So they were cheering me on from
the sidelines, and in fact, some

of my first handful of guests
were from that institution,

right, because who else knew me?

Especially before you have your
podcast, trying to find guests to

go on this non-existent podcast
is quite interesting though.

They've been all fully supportive
and it was great, but I think

everyone felt comfortable having that
layer of separation just in case.

I think just being cautious
by nature, it doesn't hurt.

There's no disadvantage to
keep a level of separation.

But there could be potential disadvantages
to not having separation and maybe

blurring lines if your institution didn't
love the final product, or maybe the topic

wasn't conducted in a way they would've
aligned with their goals and priorities.

So I think having that layer of separation
and having the agreement upfront made

everyone feel much more comfortable.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, always do your
homework and to make sure, you know,

like you can always access lawyers.

It's better to ask the questions and
get yourself into something down the

road that's gonna affect your career.

Sarah Holtan: Absolutely, yes.

I, I didn't mention that, but I did
have formal legal advice as well.

Again, just as a layer of protection,
and I felt like the investment

upfront was worth it, just in case.

Like I said, I'm kind of cautious by
nature, so I would rather just know

what I'm getting into and what could
be potential minefields and then

try and mitigate any of that risk.

Thankfully I haven't had any trouble, so.

Jennifer-Lee: But I think it's
important too because it's something

as we're creating our own brands, and
this goes for anyone doing podcasting

similar to you and it's not just
in the higher education space, is

really protecting what you've built.

'Cause it's your podcast and so you don't
want to get to the point where, you know,

someone takes your podcast from you too,
because you don't officially own it,

because you go together with another
type of partner or another institution.

So I think it's just
protecting what you've built.

Sarah Holtan: Amen.

Jen.

I was hearing a couple of stories
about that, unfortunately,

when we were at Higher podcast.

Yes.

That they thought the podcast
was their own because they were

the ones doing the work on it.

And then it turns out it's
not actually owned by 'em.

So mine fortunately, is all
squared away that I own it.

Neil McPhedran: Well, and that it afforded
you the ability now that you're at the

Carroll University, you took your podcast
with you 'cause it's yours and there was

no sort of weirdness, grey area there.

Because if you hadn't and that, that
would've been a bit of a weird one.

If you hadn't sort of done that, that
might have a tricky one to take it

with you when you go to your new gig.

Sarah Holtan: I don't think you would.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Sarah Holtan: I think you'd
have to start over to be honest.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's the
hard part is, and this is a good

lesson for anybody going in the
higher education space, it's okay

to do one that's institute focused.

Just be aware when you
have those conversations.

If you have planned to take this with
you later on, you might not be able to.

And make sure it's, if you want it
to keep it separate, it's not the

title of the university or whatever.

But these are conversations
that we're all learning because

podcasting is still relatively young.

So it's good things to think about when
you're approaching your institution or

your business, and if you wanna be a
big part of it in the future, you gotta

figure out where that all fits, right?

Sarah Holtan: And I would add to
that, there's plenty of advantages

to having an institutional podcast
versus being a lone wolf like me.

I think about like just the
time it takes to do the podcast.

I mean, that's all in my own time.

That is not built into my work schedule.

The funding for the podcast is
self-funding through my sponsorships

and through my other work.

You start from scratch with
your listener base, right?

Because you're a single person
versus affiliated with an institution

that might already have a social
media following or have other

networks that they can draw from.

So there's plenty of advantages to doing
an institutional podcast, for sure.

Neil McPhedran: Yep.

I would sort of just on this point
here, because I think it's a good

one, Jen and I are going through a
process with another podcast right

now where they had been doing it with
the school for five years and then the

funding just disappeared basically.

And the institution stopped paying
for the hosting and they're like,

well, hang on a second, right?

It's MBA associated.

And so they'd baked it into coursework
and everything, so they went through a

process of then trying to get it back
from the school so they could take

it on and carry forward themselves.

And I think that, Jen knows more
than I about sort of that, but

it's, it was a tricky situation.

Jennifer-Lee: It wasn't easy either.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, it wasn't easy.

And then now like, and
then who owns the RSS feed?

And so I think the point here is whether
you're doing what you are doing, Sarah,

which is like you, this was your thing
and you went to your institution.

You said, this is what I'm doing.

Here it is upfront.

You got legal advice and you started
up an LLC and you did it that way, or

you're doing it with your institution.

Having the conversation early
on makes a lot of sense.

'Cause I think either
way things can go funny.

Jennifer-Lee: And it's really
hard when you start and you're

the host of the podcast too.

Neil, I have interviewed other
institutions where the podcast

stays and the hosts change.

And that's fine.

But if you put all your, your own
sweat equity in it, obviously the

university or college has put in dollars.

With podcasting, it's so hard, but
you have all these things and like

gaining your ownership is so important.

Like I've had people come to me
in different respects, they're

like, oh, well it's okay.

We have all our episodes.

We'll just restart it on another platform.

I said, no, you're gonna
compete with your ghost.

And nobody talks about
competing with your ghost.

And like with your website,
like Sarah, you've been doing

your podcast for how long now?

Sarah Holtan: Two and a half years.

Jennifer-Lee: Two and a half years.

You haven't been on that long, but
two and a half years, you probably

have a lot of potential SEO behind
the scenes that you don't know.

So if you were to lose that
tomorrow, it, it's hard.

Neil McPhedran: Maybe we just sort of
dig into a little bit more, some of

the advantages, disadvantages of, or
maybe an another way to put it, share

some pro tips with us here for going it
alone and launching your own podcast,

what would you say are some key things?

Sarah Holtan: All right, so when I
think about some pro tips, like things

that, if I had the wisdom two and a
half years ago when I started, I think,

and everybody said it to me, but I
don't know that I took it a hundred

percent seriously, was this idea of
setting your goals beyond monetization.

And I was like, oh, sure.

Like, yeah, I get it.

But really to keep yourself motivated,
whether you're a lone wolf or even if

you're connected to the institutional
podcast, so say someone taps you on the

shoulder and says, can you work on this?

Or can you start one up for us?

And so I think in higher ed, it's
gonna resonate with a lot of your

listeners to have the goal of impact.

Like, what am I giving
back to this community?

You know, am I uplifting and highlighting
our alumni, our students, our

faculty, staff, our administrators.

Am I providing new content for this space?

Am I helping all of us grow professionally
and build our network and make new

marketing tactics that land well with
the constituents that we wanna pull in?

Like have those goals and then
just kind of always have them

as North Star and a work toward.

And again, it's so obvious, and I know
other people have said it, but I don't

know that I took it fully seriously.

Now that I really do, it's for me, impact
is the number one goal that I have.

And then building my
personal network, right?

So beyond just the confines of my
institution and the other spaces

that I work in, there's networks I've
developed through podcasting that

I would not have had any other way.

And it seems like everyone kind
of introduces you to somebody

else and you realize that like the
higher ed community is not as big

as I once thought it was, right?

A lot of us are connected in
some way, so that's been amazing.

I also do it for professional development.

I love to learn, but I fully acknowledge
that reading all the books and the

articles, I just have limited time.

Y'all probably do too, but we all can
do a podcast while doing something

else, while driving my kids to
soccer and going grocery shopping

and exercising and commuting.

So you're able to essentially learn
while you're doing something else.

And so I think the professional
development piece of podcasting

has been super, you know, on the
forefront of one of my goals.

So just really considering your goals.

I think also for many of us
in higher ed, I have a media

background, but I was never on air.

I was a producer, and so not having
my on air skills developed very well.

Just practice and you don't even need to
actually be interviewing a real guest,

like interview your friend or your kid
or the dog or yourself and just record

it on whatever virtual platform you use.

And then force yourself to listen to it.

You get so much better.

I still make myself listen to my episodes.

I know some people don't, but
I think I get better faster.

And then one other tip that I would
love to share with you guys is just

really read about podcasting expertise.

They don't have to be higher ed
podcasters, just whoever you admire.

There's other podcasters
that do their shows on it.

There's books, there's articles.

You know, any of that will help you
get better 'cause other people have

learned through trial and error.

So if you can minimize your
trial and error phase, you'll

have more fun with it too.

Oh, and this is controversial because
I know a lot of podcasters on our

shoestring budget, and maybe it sounds
extravagant, but if you can hire some

of the technical side to be done.

So I rent a studio.

I do all the upfront work.

But I do not hit the record button and I
do not have to do the post editing myself.

And I just, in my mind,
that is money well spent.

Because I'm not good at the
technical side, and to be honest,

I don't wanna spend the time on it.

That's where I would probably fall
off my consistency train is if I

had to sit down and post edit and
then, you know, do all the things to

make it go into the podcast world.

So if you can afford it, do it, because
I really think it makes a difference.

Neil McPhedran: I do really appreciate
your point, Sarah, and I completely agree.

Even if over time you think you can
take on more and more of the podcast,

upfront, getting some help, whether in
those areas that you are not interested

in or not in your wheelhouse is going
to be helpful for you in the long run.

And even if that is in the short
term, getting that help and then

learning it properly so then
you can run with it yourself, I

think is definitely invaluable.

'Cause you know, back to the cadence
and keeping going, and people who try

to tackle it all themselves and learn
it all themselves, those are the ones

I think that experience the pod fade
and just give up kind of a thing.

Sarah Holtan: And it's
easy to give up, right?

If it's not tied to your job.

It could be, again, you have to know what
your goals are and your motivation, so

that will keep you sustained for a while.

But it will also be the thing
that goes if it can't, right?

If you hit particularly busy or
trying part of your life, that's

gonna be the extra that you give up.

And so having that help can be the
difference between keeping it going.

And I don't know if you guys have
found this to be true, but you really

have to put a lot of episodes out
there before it starts to pick up and

there's some traction and some momentum.

I would say the first 20 to 30 episodes
that I made just kind of seemed they

were there and I had a slow growth.

And all sudden right around 35,
38, I was like, oh, okay, now

the members are looking good.

And then by 50 some it was
in a totally different place.

So it's almost like that flywheel effect.

So sustaining your ability to do it,
if it means having to hire out pieces

of the podcast, it is gonna be well
worth it if you wanna keep it going.

Jennifer-Lee: And don't
get upset with the numbers.

I've seen a lot of cool things
happen with really teeny audiences.

But be consistent.

Yeah, maybe you have low numbers compared
to Joe Rogan, but you're doing it again

for like different reasons and goals.

So if you align yourself to your
reasons and goals, you're gonna be fine.

Quick question for you before we go,
because I know we gotta wrap this up

soon, is you talked about monetization.

Not a lot of people talk
about that here on this show.

Can you tell what you
did to get monetization?

Sarah Holtan: I'm not a natural
sales person, so that is

something that I'm growing in.

It doesn't come naturally to me.

So again, area of growth, getting
better at it all the time and

more comfortable, 'cause it's
like I want my product out there.

'Cause I really do believe people
are learning from it and that

there's really good things happening
for the people who are listening.

So I believe in it, but you know, it's
different to kind of sell yourself, right?

Yeah, so there's two ways that I make
money and I, I make enough to keep going.

I cannot quit the day job.

I'd say probably most of your guests
don't need to monetize it, right?

That wouldn't,

Neil McPhedran: Very, very few.

Sarah Holtan: Yeah.

That's probably unusual.

Okay, so yeah, so direct sponsorships.

So sponsorships of like that
are basically ads I call 'em.

I have one that's a pre-roll right
now, so you'll hear it before

the rest of the episode starts.

So it's people who've signed on that said,
we wanna be in front of your audience.

And then the other way to do it that
I'm working on is that my guests

are actually contributing to, like
compensating me to be on there.

But they do have, we
co-create the content.

So I really am careful to protect
the integrity of this show.

I want my listeners to get value, so
I do not accept the type of guest that

is only going to have a commercial.

I don't want that.

I do want though, like people who are in
education or adjacent to education and

have something really valuable to offer
and they want to be in front of my guests.

They want their spokesperson, so
you know, whoever they appoint from

their company to make it on my show.

But they weren't on my radar for
whatever reason, wasn't familiar

with them, so that they have a
chance to be in front of my audience.

As, as the creative control
person, I try to make sure that

there's tons of value in it.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I know that
the Ed Up guys chatted about that.

Joe was sort of taking me through that.

Sarah Holtan: Oh yeah.

That's where I got the idea from.

Neil McPhedran: Okay, great.

I think we covered a number of things
here today, Sarah, and I really

appreciate you joining us and giving
us some insights into what you've

created, and I think it's just excellent.

We really appreciate it.

Sarah Holtan: Thank you, Neil and
Jen, and thank you for all that you

do to put out more information in an
accessible format for the listeners.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much.

Neil McPhedran: Jen, that was
great conversation with Sarah.

I really enjoyed that.

I think there's some super applicable
tips and things that we can be doing

for our higher ed podcast and sort of
figuring out how to keep church and

state separate from your day job at
the institution, but still be in this

world of higher education podcasting.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think
another great tip from her was that,

really, if you're thinking of doing
a podcast, make sure that you are

having the discussions with, uh, the
institute that you're working with.

Because as we mentioned, sometimes
when it comes down to ownership

no one knows who owns the podcast.

So if somebody helps build it up and they
leave that institute and they put all the

work into it, who gets ownership of it?

So I think that was a really
interesting that, that we never

really talked about before.

Neil McPhedran: The
podcast prenup basically.

Jennifer-Lee: Podcast prenup.

I like that.

Neil McPhedran: Now that I'm thinking
about it after it kind of is, right?

Like you go into a relationship,
it's all hunky dory.

You know, you're not thinking
about it ending, but stuff happens.

Jennifer-Lee: And you both put
work into the relationship, care.

Neil McPhedran: That's right.

Right, right.

It very much is that.

So, some really good practical
insights to apply to the podcasting

space in the higher education world.

So Jen, I think let's leave it there.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into
the Continuing Studies podcast, the

podcast for higher education podcasters.

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