Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Brett Spencer: I always say to
my teams in both broadcast and

podcasting, and the students here at
the university, that actually making

the program is only 50% of the job.

If you are a podcaster, you're probably
doing three jobs on that podcast.

If you're not doing three jobs,
you're probably doing all the jobs.

It's about, you know, kiting
up somebody to be able to do

all of those different jobs.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder
of Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there,

and we all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: And we are just coming
out of our amazing weekend at PodCon

where we met and we're inspired by all
kinds of other higher ed podcasters.

Jen, today we are chatting with
Brett Spencer and he is at the City

St. George's University of London,
where they have a really exciting

master's program teaching podcasting.

Brett also has a background
coming out of the BBC.

He actually still does a few
things at the BBC, which he

mentions and explains that to us.

But over and above all that, he's
also at Spirit Land Productions,

which is a podcast production company.

And they also have a studio,
it sounds like incredible.

I'd like to check it out, that
incredible studio for producing

podcasts in London as well too.

So lots to, lots to
unpack there with Brett.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, it's a
really well known studio too.

A lot of people like fly to film there.

I think that's pretty awesome.

And the fact that they're doing really
neat things and he gets into it.

Like they do live podcasts, streaming
live into theaters, which is, and

again, Neil, and anytime I think that we
interview these people for our Continued

Studies podcast that like, that's it.

There's no more other types of jobs and
podcasting or other ways to podcast.

And then also like, come on,
they're like, oh, we're streaming

a podcast live to theaters.

You're like, oh, okay.

Well that's another business venture.

Podcasting is growing and I'm really
excited to, uh, chat with Brett.

Neil McPhedran: And just really get
into this incredible program that

the City St. George's University of
London has developed and the amazing

students that are coming out of the
program and getting into podcasting

in all different shapes and sizes.

Jennifer-Lee: It's the only one, but
I'm sure there will be more to come

because it really is, and we talk
about this a lot, there is no really

formal education for podcasting.

But as it becomes more of an
industry, we're gonna see that.

So Brett's part of that.

So let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Hello Brett.

Thanks for joining us today.

Brett Spencer: Thank you for having me.

Long time listener to first time caller.

Neil McPhedran: There's a bit of
a story, you and Jen met at the

London Podcast show recently.

Brett Spencer: I'll let
Jen tell that story.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

Well, I'm a little embarrassed because
like I know that people listen to us, but

you don't realize who's listening to you.

And when you go to London,
you don't expect that.

I realized I was at a podcast show,
so I'm kind of setting myself up here.

But I went over to Brett because they
had a booth for the London University

and I chatted with him and I said, we
would love you to be on our podcast.

And he is like, I listen to your podcast.

And I was like, no, you don't.

And so he actually had to like bring
his phone up and like show me the apps.

And actually he does listen to us.

So that goes to show to
everybody listening, you just

don't know who's listening.

Brett Spencer: I really enjoy the
podcast 'cause it's interesting to

hear from lots of other people who
are working in this sort of space

in different parts of the world.

And particularly was struck by the
gentleman you head on from Syracuse,

whose name I don't remember.

But you know, there's a lot of learnings
that you can take from other people when

they're talking about what they're doing.

So it's a really good podcast.

Congratulations on it.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you.

Neil McPhedran: So Brett, I don't
think we've actually had too many

people on the teach podcasting.

We had Carl on, uh,

Jennifer-Lee: He knows Carl
Hartley too, by the way.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, well I think
obviously you guys are connected,

but really we talk more to people
using podcasts or our podcasters.

So this is great because I feel like
starting to come across teaching of

podcasting at the university level,
you are at the University of London.

You're a senior lecturer in
podcasting and it's actually a

master's if, if I have this right.

It's a master's degree that is being
offered at the University of London.

Brett Spencer: That's correct.

It's City University, which is part
of the University of London, and it's

offered by the school of journalism.

We've just completed the second
year and we're about to go into

a third year of the course.

And it was really about trying to fill
a gap in the industry over here because.

You know, I've been in podcasting
since 2005, 20 years now, and one

of the things that's happened in
that time, there's a lot of people

coming into podcasting that don't
necessarily have an audio background.

I set up a panel from the industry,
about a dozen people who I gathered

here at City, who sort of fed into what
they thought the podcasting industry

needed, because it was quite easy to find
someone who knew how to make a program.

But it was everything else that people
didn't necessarily know how to do.

And I always say to, to my teams in,
in both broadcast and podcasting,

and the students here at the
university, that actually making

the program is only 50% of the job.

If you are a podcaster, you're probably
doing three jobs on that podcast.

If you're not doing three jobs,
you're probably doing all the jobs.

It's about, you know, kiting
up somebody to be able to do

all of those different jobs.

And the podcasting industry has a lot
of people coming into it from social

media roles that don't necessarily
have an audio background or from

content creator roles and YouTube,
making TikToks, et cetera, don't

necessarily have an audio background.

We heard from the podcast companies
here, it was difficult to recruit

people who were all round podcasters
who understood both how to make

a program and the business.

Understood what they could do in
terms of law and everything else.

So we designed the course around
the needs of the industry.

The idea being that we hope
the industry sees this as an

incubator for new podcasting
talent for them to hire later on.

Jennifer-Lee: That's really interesting
because I come from a broadcasting

background like you, Brett.

And I went to broadcasting
school, and it's changing so much.

And I go back to see the professors.

They say they're not sure where
they're going with the program

because a lot of people aren't
even going into traditional radio.

They do have a podcasting element,
but it's not fully fledged out

like the one that you're doing.

And I think that's so important.

It's great that people come from all
backgrounds digital, like Neil is from

public relations and digital marketing.

But I really think that root of
broadcasting really helps you.

So it's great that you
guys are doing that.

Because we're kind of
in a weird transition.

Anyone can do a podcast, which is great.

But there isn't really any formal training
unless they go to courses like yours.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, and you know, I'm not
an academic, I'm not traditional academic.

This is the first time I've been in in
this world, but I think getting industry

people like myself, all the other people
that come into the university to teach

the students from around the industry,
is really valuable because they're

learning sort of real world skills.

We had 17 students this year,
plus two part-time students.

They all had placements with
podcast production companies.

A lot of them will get hired by those
companies after their course finishes.

So it therefore really does act as
a direct route into the industry and

you're beginning to see lots of people
who are coming off the course, you know,

making great progress and all these
various different podcast companies.

So we are, we are achieving
what we set out to do.

Jennifer-Lee: And I love that you are
still working in the industry as well,

which sometimes does it happen in any area
that you go into universities or college.

Like some of the teachers are
just teachers, but I love that

you are working with Spirit Land.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Brett Spencer: Yeah, so I work
with a company called Spirit

Land and we do lots of things.

We make our own original podcasts.

We also have a podcast studio, which
houses podcasts for other companies

who want to make our podcast with us.

And we also have an outside
broadcast vehicles to do lots

of big outside broadcast events.

And last year we did the first podcast
to cinemas, so we did a podcast called

Help I Sexted My Boss, which was doing
a live show at the London Palladium and

we broadcasted to 408 cinema screens
around Europe and sold 25,000 tickets.

It's a whole new world for podcasting
to be in, live broadcasting to

cinemas, and we're looking to do
some more of those going forward.

So I work Spirit Land one day a
week, we're all ex-BBC, and I also

work for the BBC two days a week.

So I run two local radio stations for
the BBC as part of a job share, BBC3

counties Radio and BBC Northampton.

So I have too many jobs, but you know,
that portfolio career is quite useful

for the university because it means
I'm spending, you know, more of my

time in that world working with lots of
production companies and then can bring

that back into the university with me.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's great.

I mean, I think that speaks to,
just even in that, what you just

shared with us there, there's so
many different angles to podcasting.

There's the journalistic side of it,
there's the entertainment side of it.

You've got true crime, so on and so forth.

So I just think it's an interesting genre
with so many different areas of focus.

Brett Spencer: One of the things
that, that we talked to students

about quite earlier, the different
roles in podcasting, because it's

not just about making the thing.

So actually, you know, we teach them
lots of practical skills, like how to

respond to a brief from a client, how
to write a pitch document, how to pitch

in the room, how to sell a, a podcast
in the room, how to write a host read.

That's not something that
comes naturally to people.

How to work with advertisers, how
to work with platforms, all of those

things which are part of podcasting,
but there isn't necessarily anywhere

to learn all of those things.

You know, great artwork is obviously
really important as we know.

SEO, how to launch a podcast, what
your social media plan should be.

All of those things are
integrated as part of the course.

So students will leave with not
just the ability to make something,

but all of those skills that
are needed in the marketplace.

And actually what I hope will happen is
that some of our students will get really

good jobs in the industry that are not
involved in actually making the thing.

They might want to be involved
in other specialist areas where

there is a real need for people.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, I love that
because there's so many different

areas, like traditional broadcasting,
everyone thinks of being on air.

And they don't realize that
there is actually so many

other types of jobs out there.

Like you could do documentaries and
that's something that people don't

think about doing in podcasting as well.

Or like you said, producing or selling,
or like I was talking to someone yesterday

that just does podcast media sales
like you would for traditional radio.

So there's a world beyond
this and like Neil, you come

from like a PR and background.

A lot of this stuff you were doing
back in the day, but now it's like

you're just doing it with a podcast.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I mean, my
background in digital, I've been

focused on the digital marketing space
for my career, so that's why it was a

natural progression into podcasting.

I was with some former colleagues of
mine and they were like, podcasting.

How did you get into that?

I feel like it's a combination of
everything I've done in my career

from developing digital content to
a lot of the stuff you just said,

Brett, like the SEO and pitching and
obviously the advertising side of it.

I've just been doing that for years,
but there's so much of it there.

The part that I've had to
learn is the broadcasting part.

That is, you know, that I've had
to learn as I've come into this.

A lot of that other stuff,
I kind of came with it.

I am interested though, Brett, I
mean it's the school of journalism

that the program is coming out of,
so is there still sort of a strong

journalistic component to it as well too?

Brett Spencer: There is a journalistic
component, but we also have a comedy

masterclass and all the students
can take specialism, so they can

take a specialism in sports or in
finance or in investigations, so

there's a chance for them to spread
their wings and do different things.

Obviously, a lot of them will end up
working in entertainment or in comedy

or within those wide variety of spaces.

It's the number one
journalism school in the UK.

I think I'm allowed to say that.

It's great to have podcasting
as part of that makeup.

Also, there's great facilities.

I'm speaking to you now in
one of our radio studios.

We've got three bespoke
podcasting studios.

We're building visualized
studios over the summer.

The resources here are fantastic.

Jennifer-Lee: I know when
you got on Brett, I was like,

is he at the BBC right now?

Because your studio looks so professional
and I would Kill as a broadcasting student

to be in there because that looks great.

I want Neil to come to Lena next time too.

He had FOMO from not coming this time.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I'm definitely
coming next time around for sure.

Brett Spencer: The podcast show is a
fine example of just how the industry

has grown over the last few years.

I started back in 2005.

You couldn't imagine something
like the podcast show back then.

You look at the thousands of people that
are coming through the doors, but whether

they're content creators or advertisers
or production companies or platforms,

now to have a show of that size and scale
dedicated to podcasts just shows how far

the industry is coming in that 20 years.

Jennifer-Lee: I think that's really
interesting that you say that,

Brett, because I find that like,
I'm glad I have Neil and a few other

people because sometimes it feels
like the industry is non-existent.

Yes.

We have a lot of clients in Canada,
but like when we go to the US

conferences or the UK conferences,
people don't realize how massive the

industry is and that it's growing.

Like I get excited when
I go to those things.

Brett Spencer: Absolutely.

Neil McPhedran: I mean, especially in
the last couple of years, I've just

seen a tremendous, I mean, you've
seen 20 years of growth, Brett.

I think though that in the last couple
of years we've seen like an accelerated

period of growth, especially in our
little corner in higher education,

that it just feels like more and
more it's becoming such an important

part of university communication.

Whether it be at the institutional
level or whether it be the

individual professor level.

It's such a great medium
for higher education.

So not only to teach it and move on,
but also to use it as such an important

channel in the mix of what they're doing.

Brett Spencer: Yes, I agree.

But you still got a lot of people saying,
so podcasting started to go mainstream.

No, it's been mainstream for a long time,
but there were still 50% of people in

the UK listen to a podcast every week.

That's still half people that don't.

So there's still an enormous
amount of room for growth.

People, you know, occasionally
say to me, well, so podcasting's

got bigger reach than radio now?

Well it hasn't, you know, radio's
still much bigger and it's

got much more live listening.

I run two radio stations at the same
time, so I see the other side of that.

So podcasting, you know, while it's
grown hugely, still got a huge growth

period to go through, if that makes
sense, to reach the, you know, the

mass that radio already reaches.

And it's interesting that the people that
are coming in are clearly much younger.

So younger audience's coming
into podcasting in the way that

they're not coming into radio.

So those radio audiences that are
between 18 and 24 now, when they're

24, 30, that's gonna lower the, the
average age for people listening

at that age, if that makes sense.

So we will start to see the impact of
podcasting on radio audiences as time

goes on, because one will be going
up and the other one will be coming

down at the bottom end of the scale.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, it's
still just so young.

When we go to the conferences, they're
like podcast is still in its first inning.

It just, everyone feels like it's a lot
bigger than it is because they're hearing

the buzz word podcast all the time.

They're not realizing and like
looking at like actually how

many live shows are out there.

They're just like, oh, I have a lot of
people who are like, podcast is over.

It, it's too big now.

And I'm like, no, it's actually not.

Brett Spencer: No.

It's like people say sometimes,
are there too many podcasts?

Well, are there too many TV shows?

You know, are there too
many radio programs?

Are there too many books?

So, so no, there are
not too many podcasts.

There's the thing about, well,
podcasting really started with Serial.

No.

Some of us were ask it for a long
time before Serial came along.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

I'm curious because it is a journalism
program, and I know we talked to

Carl Hartley a little bit about this.

When you go to broadcasting school,
they talk to you about being liable

for like what you're putting out there.

Obviously a podcast, it's a little
bit different because it's not quite

governed the way that radio is.

So when you're teaching a journalistic
integrity, are you guys still teaching

be careful what you're reporting on?

Because that's the other thing that
podcasting gets a bad rap that anyone can

go out and say whatever they wanna say.

Brett Spencer: So every single one of our
students has to do a media law module.

That's compulsory.

And they have to take a law exam as well.

The answer to your question is, is yes.

And we also make sure they adhere
to, you know what music you can use.

Everything they produce needs to
be something that you would put out

in the real world without either
getting sent to jail or getting sued.

Everything has to be of
a broadcast standard.

So yes is the answer to your question.

Jennifer-Lee: That's great because I
always, and Neil's working on one right

now, working on a true crime podcast,
but I'm always fascinated in that world

because some people can go rogue and
it works for them, but I'm like, this

just feels like there's a lot of legal
stuff that you have to like deal with

because it's gonna come back at you.

Brett Spencer: So I worked
at a podcast series last year

called the Captain Tom Story.

Do you know, do you know
who Captain Tom was?

Jennifer-Lee: No.

Tell us.

Brett Spencer: Okay.

So Captain Tom was a man who
was 99 years old, and for his

hundredth birthday, he walked laps
around his garden during COVID.

Jennifer-Lee: Oh, I do know during COVID.

Brett Spencer: And he raised
millions and millions for NHS.

But then it started to look a little murky
as to where had some of that money gone.

And there were various accusations
against his family, and you can tell

that even now I'm treading carefully.

There was a charity commissioner
report that came out just last year.

Myself and a colleague, Justin Dealey
made a podcast series about that.

And we forensically looked through the
accounts over many weeks and looked

at where all the money had gone.

And then in the very last episode,
some months later, we had the first

interview with his daughter who
had been accused of various things.

Important for me to say they, you
know, they've not been charged

with any crime and no crime's been
created, important me to say that.

Neil McPhedran: You've
taken your own course.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, but the point
I'm making here is that during that

period I spent more time with the
BBC's legal department that I probably

had in my, the 15 years put together
when I was at the BBC as staff.

So that was a real life case I was
able to present to the students that,

you know, we were, on call was at
11 o'clock at night the night before

an episode was coming out and still
discussing what we might be able to say.

So having those real world
examples that we're doing in real

time is incredibly useful to be
able to present to the students.

But is an illustration to them that
you know, when you are working on

a podcast, you've gotta be really,
really careful about what you're saying

and what you're putting out there.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think that's a
really interesting example and as Jen

said, I'm in the beginning of that with
a true crime podcast I'm working on here.

And I think maybe I need to figure
out how to work with CBC on this

end like you worked with BBC on
your end to help with a lawyer.

We are getting advice though, that's
for sure 'cause it's a cold murder case.

Definitely don't want to get
ourselves into hot water there.

Brett Spencer: Well, somebody said
to me the other day, they were

working on something and they said,
I'm having a nightmare with legal.

They're interfering all the
time and getting involved.

And I said, no, the legal
department are your friend.

You know what I mean?

They're the ones trying to
keep you on the straight and

narrow and keep you outta jail.

So, you know, make sure
stuff is legally correct.

It's incredibly important.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's
what's really interesting

about the program there.

How multi, like when you rattled off a
few minutes ago, all the different areas

of it, I think when you kind of just
start thinking about it on the outset.

You sort of think about the production
side and whatnot, but then when

you start really digging into what
podcasting is, there's so much there.

'Cause it's a digital medium,
so everything that comes along

with digital nowadays, including
the SEO kind of component of it.

But then what we just talked
about with the legal side of it.

I mean, it's such a great program.

There must be some students that
have come out of the program that

are out in the podcast wild just
doing some really interesting things.

Have you, have you seen that
with the first couple of cohorts?

Brett Spencer: We've got two people
working for Goalhanger who are the big

UK outfit here, and we've got a third one
who's just been hired by them, I think.

And I know that some of the students
this year have also been hired by

the companies they're working for.

We are seeing them translate into jobs
quite quickly because the industry knows

that if they've been on this course,
then they're coming out as a fully

rounded individual, if that makes sense.

And those that have work experience
with a lot of those companies have seen

firsthand what they are capable of.

And those skills, of all the
things I talked about as opposed

to just making the podcast, are
the things the industry needs.

Which is why we had that sort of steering
group before we started the degree of,

what needs to be in this course that
are the things you are looking for?

At that time when we had that steering
group, three different companies had

said to me that had recently gone through
an interview process for a podcast

producer and not hired anyone from that
pool of interviewees that they've got.

So we knew there was a need that
we could, that we could fill.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

I love that there's the real world
component to the program where the

students are getting real world, uh,
experience and then for some of them

that's actually turned into a gig.

And what a win-win for like a Goalhanger,
for example, to, uh, be able to

see their capabilities firsthand.

Like, this person knows their
stuff and they're great.

We're gonna hire them now.

Brett Spencer: And Goalhanger give us
a 5,000 pound bursary for a student,

which we award each year, which students
could apply for, because I was quite

keen that we enabled some students that
wouldn't necessarily be able to afford

to do the course to be able to take it.

So we have a 5,000 pound
bursary from Goalhanger.

and we have a 25,000 pound scholarship
from Spotify, which will cover all

course fees and accommodation for a
student, for Spotify, and those two

things also come with work experience.

So the person's on that bursary then gets
to go to work experience, so they get

to go and work at those companies that
are sponsoring them at the same time.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that.

I was just thinking about it because
I went and saw Goalhanger speak at

the podcast show, and I know that your
students are there and so, you know,

this is exciting for the students because
you're sitting there and they're, you're

seeing all these big emerging companies
that you could potentially work for.

When I was a young broadcaster, I always
wanted to work at the BBC, but it's just

that same exciting thing of like, you're
sitting there and you're like, oh, I wanna

work for BBC or CNN, you know, it's neat
to see these real life examples and when

they're going to these different shows and
be like, oh, I could actually work there.

Brett Spencer: And it's interesting you
say that about the BBC and CNN because

actually a lot of people now will go
their entire career without ever working

for a broadcaster, if that makes sense.

So, you know, certainly when
I came through, I wanted to go

and work for the BBC or for LBC
or commercial radio, whatever.

But actually for a lot of people
now, while they might make things

for that broadcaster, but they may
never actually work for a broadcaster.

And actually for many people,
they may never have a staff job.

Because so much of the podcast
industry is run on freelance staff.

You can be making two or three different
podcasts in two or three different places.

You don't actually need
a staff job anywhere.

So the way the industry is shaped
has become quite different.

Neil McPhedran: So any of our
listeners out there who are considering

developing a podcasting program at
their university, any sort of initial

advice that you would share about
getting things up off the ground?

Obviously it's a lot of work and
there's a lot of components to it,

but sort of anyone out there who's
listening that is thinking about

this, what would you say to them?

Brett Spencer: I think the steering
group thing was really useful.

Finding out what the industry needs.

If you can get advice from people
you think you'll be hiring into.

One of the advantages we've
got is we are in London.

If you work for Acast, you can
walk here, Spotify's up the road.

We are in a prime position.

If you are setting up a course in a
major area with lots of companies in

it, then that's gonna be different
from setting up a course if you are

perhaps in the middle of America.

So it's about where are you gonna feed
your people into, if that makes sense.

And what can you deliver?

We do a great event in the autumn called
Podcast Gold, where we get half a dozen of

the winners of the British Podcast Awards
to come in and talk in one evening, and

they all get to do 15, 20 minutes each.

Last year we had a hundred students.

We had a hundred people from the
podcast industry, and we can only

really do that because we are in London,
you know, and we can call on those

people to come in and do that event.

We've done that three years now.

We'll do a fourth one
this October, hopefully.

And that's become a sort of industry event
that we are able to have in our calendar.

We're also able to go to lots
of podcast events and shows and

companies, because we are in London.

If you're doing something in New
York and LA and there my friend Steve

Goldstein does a fantastic course at
NYU on the business of podcasting.

We hung out in London recently.

That's obviously gonna, you know,
the people that he can bring in are

gonna be different from the people
that you can bring in elsewhere.

Neil McPhedran: I, I really like
that lens that you put on it of it's

not just a program and a course for
someone to learn about, but you started

with where are they gonna go after?

And it's connecting with the wider
community that's gonna potentially

hire these people, but also gonna
be involved with the program.

And I think that's really important
there to not think about this as separate

academic exercise, but it needs to
be closely aligned with the industry.

And what a great opportunity then to pull
in industry as well to sort of connect

more with them and just even down to the
bursary level that you guys have created.

That's tremendous.

Brett Spencer: And we've been, the
students this year have been making a

podcast series for the United Nations.

So we've been making a podcast series
for the UNFPA to highlight their work.

It's a five part series and the students
have been working in teams of four to make

that series, which we recorded recently.

They've been doing interviews
remotely with, with people all over

the world, and we're currently in
the edit stage of that, and we're

hoping to get that out quite shortly.

But to be able to do a project like that
and you know, to make a podcast series

for something as high profile as the UN,
just our second year, has been fantastic.

Jennifer-Lee: And how do you end
up getting like a partnership

with the UN that you're allowed
to do a project like that?

Brett Spencer: So I was
in New York on holiday.

And my former BBC colleague, Lalita
Taylor, who's quite brilliant, said,

come meet the UNFPA for breakfast.

She wanted me to meet this
head of innovation at the UN.

So we made that plan to meet for
breakfast, and then my flight

got canceled, so I missed it.

I got to New York and I was in
arrivals, and the Lalita was

in departures at the same time.

So she left and I said, well look,
I'll just go and meet them without you.

So I turn up at the UNFPA very much in
holiday mode and I walk into this room and

I thought I was just gonna have coffee.

But there's like a whole load of people
and there's people in the room and

there's lots of people on Zoom as well.

This is like a proper meeting.

And they'd pitch this idea of doing this
podcast project and I sort of had to

adjust my brain from being on vacation
to listening to a podcast project.

And so, yeah, I went to New
York on holiday and accidentally

came back with a podcast.

That was last June and now
a year later we've made it.

So that's been very exciting and it was
all down to pairing up the two of us, the

two partners, and that podcast will be out
hopefully in the next couple of months.

Jennifer-Lee: I can't wait to hear
and that, that's an important thing

that I think a lot of people can learn
from for podcasting is it, it, is a

lot about partnerships and finding
those relationships, and that's how

you can have a successful show or find
different unique projects to work on.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, absolutely.

I think the pitching thing is one
of the most important things that we

teach on the course, how to pitch.

We have a session very early in the
course where we ask the students to play

some audio tour us that means something
to them, if that makes sense, and

talk about it something in their life.

And the bit that I always play, which
sort of shocks people, 'cause it's

very sweary, is I play the Alec Baldwin
scene from Glengarry Glen Ross, in

which he says, always be closing.

And I said, you don't realize
why I'm showing you this now,

but you will later in the year.

And then at various points later
in the year, I will say to them,

you know, always be closing.

Neil McPhedran: I like that.

That's great.

Brett Spencer: And I can't even remember
what they're selling in that film.

It's all relevant to whatever
you're trying to sell.

And if you're making a podcast or you
want to make a podcast, at some point,

you're gonna have to convince someone
to let you do it, whether it's the

company you're working for, whether it's
a broadcaster, whether it's a platform.

At some point, you're probably gonna
have to convince someone to let

you make something unless you're
making it under your own steam.

So I think that pitching
thing is incredibly important.

Neil McPhedran: Even if it's your
own project, you still gotta, there's

still a point where you gotta pitch
it at some point in time, right?

Whether or not it's just bringing
on someone to interview even.

I like that.

That's, that's good advice.

Always be closing.

Jennifer-Lee: You can do
social media, you can do paid

advertising and all that stuff.

If you're not building relationships
and doing cross-promotion or getting

on different lists and sending your
podcast out to different associations

to get listeners and building those
relationships, it's not gonna go anywhere

unless you're just lucky that you
put out one episode and it takes off.

But it is a really
relationship building business.

Brett Spencer: A hundred percent.

It is all about relationships.

And you said something very important
about partnerships there as well.

You know, partnering up with
people, reaching out to people.

I've worked with lots of people
that I might have met on Twitter

or met at a conference or whatever.

So one of the most important things you
do is have a coffee with somebody 'cause

you never know what's gonna come from it.

I always advise people to reach
out to people, particularly if

you like what someone's doing.

You like their project.

If you like their podcast, it's
always worth reaching out because

you never know what might come of it.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

Or you trek Brett down
at his booth in London.

Because what happened was he wasn't
there when I first went there

and I said, where's this Brett?

Because Steven Goldstein told
me I needed to talk to you.

And they're like, he went on a coffee
break and then I like literally kept like

circling the booth until you got there.

Brett Spencer: Steve and I were part
of a little interesting panel actually,

which, uh, we'd done the year before
about opportunities for podcasters and

there are so many now, whether it be, you
know, the people on that panel myself,

Transmission Roundhouse in London, who
provide lots of schemes for, for young

people in London Audio UK who have a lot
of opportunities for young podcasters.

So, you know, creating that inroad,
that ramp into the industry for

people is incredibly important.

It's not just about what we're
doing here on this course.

It's all about everybody else that's
trying to bring on young podcasters

on board and grow young podcasters,
BBC do some fantastic things.

You probably know about BBC Audio Labs
that help first time podcasters get

their podcast published within the BBC.

So there's loads and loads
of opportunities now for, for

podcasters that are coming through.

Jennifer-Lee: I know that
EPod is coming up in London.

Do you have anything to do with that or?

Brett Spencer: No.

And then one of my colleagues
is going, I'm not going 'cause

I've got other things to do.

We're in the thick of marking
the final projects and stuff,

so I'm not going to EPod.

I think the previously mentioned
Carl Hartley is one of the

people involved in that.

I have a question for you
guys though, 'cause one we

haven't talked about is video.

So I just wondered where you stand on
the whole, the future is video question.

Neil McPhedran: That's a great question.

I, I was, uh, chatting with someone the
other day who is, he's on the be beginning

of his journey of starting a podcast.

About two minutes into the conversation he
said, I've been doing all my research and

I just keep seeing video, video, video.

I gotta do video.

And I said, I don't
think you really need to.

I think there's a lot of positive
things about video and I don't think

it, it's the wrong way to go, but if
you're starting out, it is easier to

get your legs out underneath of you,
get things going, with audio only.

Video just adds such a layer of
complication from a cost perspective.

So much more to deal with
from an editing perspective.

If it's an interview style show, which
this guy was talking about, there's

actually guests out there that aren't
comfortable going on video and you

can have a way better interview just
even if, like we're looking at each

other right now, but this is audio.

But it complicates
everything so I'm quite torn.

We are deep into video with some of
our podcasts we work with and deep

into YouTube land, and I've got a call
actually later today with Spotify.

We're in the Spotify Partner Program
for one of the podcasts that we work

with, and we're crossroads right now
with that one of incorporating video.

And what that means with Spotify.

So I'm all into it.

But at the same time, I think
if you're starting out, stick

with audio to start with.

Jennifer-Lee: I think you
have to be good on the mic.

I think you need to be able
to carry people without

images to be engaging first.

I think there is a place for
video, celebrity podcast, people

wanna see who the celebrity is.

When I was working in radio back in
the day, social media was starting

to come up and people were like,
you know what would be great?

To film yourself in the booth.

I'm sorry, but that's boring.

That's me in a booth talking
for 30 seconds about Britney

Spears or whatever pop culture
thing that I was talking about.

I think yes, video, YouTube, you
have to be on with your podcast,

but does it have to be video?

No.

Be good first at the podcast
element because I will

listen to you if you're good.

So have great storytelling first,
and to your earlier point, Neil,

not all guests, too, love them, but
they're not all great on video and

sometimes it scares them and it doesn't
give the the most compelling story.

Neil McPhedran: I think the
other thing I would add in there,

Brett, is the beauty of podcasting
is it's a multitasking medium.

I do my podcast listening while I go
for a run in the forest, while I'm

walking the dog, while I am cooking
dinner for kids or something like that.

And I think research shows, and I think
that we could sort of talk to anyone.

That's typically how we consume
podcasts, not looking at them.

Yes, I know that there's a whole
sort of chunk where people are using

YouTube up on their TV and they've got
it running and we're seeing Samsung

televisions as sort of creeping up
into the analytics and stuff like that.

But I wonder if they're using their
TV, which is probably their sound

system, and then they're doing other
stuff while they're consuming it.

So I think that's the
other side of it too.

I think there's a real tension there
around really how people interact with

the medium, which is multitasking.

And that's not gonna change.

I'm not, not while I'm running, like
looking at my screen, even though it might

have a video version of it as well too.

What do you think about all that, Brett?

Brett Spencer: Well,
there's a lot to unpack.

Neil McPhedran: Opened up the box.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, I opened up the box.

So, I'm guilty of putting the first
cameras in a BBC radio studio, which

was back in 2005 where we visualized the
first podcast that I launched, which was

the Mark Kerr, the Cyber May Film Review.

And actually I've got an interesting
edit, Mark and Simon talking to the

actor Jason Isaacs from 2005, and it then
morphed into them talking to him in 2024.

And you can see the difference in the
look from a scrappy radio studio to

a proper visualized podcast studio.

So, I believe in visualization
as something I've talked

about in a lot of places.

I did the presentation at
Radio Days Europe last year.

I've been working with some
other broadcasters on that.

But one thing that's interesting that
you said about is people not wanting to

see in the booth, because one of the big
projects I worked on was something called

6 Music Live, where I arrived at 6 Music,
which is like a indie music station here

in the UK and wanted to do something with
The Morning Show, which is presented by

a presenter called Lauren Laverne, who's
quite famous in the UK, and we took the

show to BBC Maida Vale, which is where
BBC records lots of live sessions, and we

had lots of bands play, and we did this
for five days in a row every six months.

When we started, we were sort of
scrapping around for bands to do it

the week before, and by the time we
finished we had Paul McCartney and

Robert Plant and Blow and all sorts.

It was amazing.

What was interesting is that while we
visualized the bands playing and you

could watch that sort of when you're
connected TV or online, the bit that

people were really interested in was
seeing Lauren because we built sort of

a little studio at  Maida Vale, and
you could see her, she'd be holding

signs up to the camera while the music
was playing, or she'd be dancing in the

studio or chatting to the guests off air.

And actually that was the bit that
people found really interesting.

So I'm gonna slightly disagree
on the not seeing, seeing

inside the booth, but I think,

Jennifer-Lee: No.

But she had people though.

Brett Spencer: A lot of the times she
was just by herself, I'll send you, I've

got a little compilation video, which
I'll send you and you can have a look.

But it was the insight to people
in what that show looks like

'cause I can't normally watch it.

So it was interesting to see
her in action in the studio.

So I've done a lot around visualization
in my career and continue to do so.

But in terms of visualization of
podcasts, I think I sort of am slightly

the opposite to where I'm in radio,
which is it's really about resource.

A lot of people will come to me
and say, I want to do a podcast.

And I'll say, okay,
well, what's your plan?

And they'll tell me all
the things they want to do.

They're gonna write it, they're gonna
record it, they're gonna edit it,

are they're gonna publish it, they're
gonna do social media around it.

They're gonna, they give me a whole
plan of what they're gonna do.

To which I will say, well,
what sort of time have you got?

And they're like, I've got like a
couple of hours on a Wednesday morning.

And what they've just described to me
is basically two and a half days work.

You know what I mean?

And they're really shocked by that,
that it's two and a half days work.

Now, throw video into the mix,
then that's even more work.

So I think a video for podcasting is
great if you are a big business and you

can sustain it and you have the resource.

I think the rush for everyone to do
video is potentially a bit of a misstep

because as we've said already on this
podcast, it's 50% making the thing.

It's 50% getting people to listen to it.

If you're spending 50% making the thing
and then you are also making the thing

again in video, there's even less time
to be able to get people to listen to it.

I would say video's great if you're a big
company and you've got the resource and,

or you've got big names doing your podcast
or big celebrities doing your podcast.

But generally I would always advise people
to spend more time on the 50% of getting

people to listen to it than worried less
about getting people to watch it early on.

Neil McPhedran: I do like how you use
the term visualize though, visualization.

I think that's an interesting sort
of way to think about it that makes

it, I think it sort of opens it up a
bit more than it just being a video.

To me there's more in what you're saying
there, how to visualize what the show is.

Brett Spencer: Absolutely.

Visualizing radio and making
a video of something, I think

are two different things.

So if you're visualizing what you are
doing, that's obviously gonna be less

arduous than if you're actually just
trying to make a television version of

what you're doing, if that makes sense.

So I've always focused on the
visualization of the content and the

radio or audio elements must still
be the priority, if that makes sense.

That's still the thing.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's great.

Jennifer-Lee: I agree with that.

I, it's a good place to wrap up
because I feel like we could talk

to Brett for another a few hours.

Neil McPhedran: No, I think that's a good
spot to end on for this conversation.

That's great.

So thank you so much for
joining us today, Brett.

This has been a really interesting
conversation and congratulations on an

amazing program, and I'm looking forward
to seeing how it evolves and hearing more

about some of the amazing students that
are gonna be coming out of the program.

I think we're gonna start to see more
and more at the university level, see

more and more of these kind of programs
that people are gonna start to do.

So if you're okay, you might
have people reach out to you.

Brett Spencer: That's fine.

I'm very happy if people wanna
reach out and ask me, particularly

if they live in Vancouver.

Jennifer-Lee: He's willing to work with
universities and colleges in Vancouver.

Brett Spencer: In Vancouver.

Neil McPhedran: Well you got
UBC and SFU, so there you go.

So excellent.

Jennifer-Lee: There we go.

Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you
so much for having me on.

It's great to meet you and put
faces to the voices, even though

other people can't see you.

I have to tell you, dear listener,
before we recorded this podcast, we

were talking about cats for a good 10
minutes, and that audio was probably as

interesting as the hour we've just done.

Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much.

Brett Spencer: Thank you.

Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen,
another amazing conversation.

I really loved chatting with Brett,
especially liked his love for Vancouver.

We definitely gotta get him here helping
to add a such an incredible program.

Wouldn't it be great to see
something like that at UBC or

SFU or, or BCIT where you went.

Jennifer-Lee: Or my old program
BCIT I've gotta hook 'em up.

I, I see this, I, this
makes me so excited.

I want Brett to come here and like,
change the schooling for broadcasting

so, you know, we're gonna hook 'em up.

So I feel very inspired.

Neil McPhedran: Plus
just that British accent.

It just, you know, adds a
layer of sophistication.

Jennifer-Lee: It does.

We've been talking to a lot of people from
London lately, and I was like, I love it.

And being in the conference, it's
just such a different conference

when everybody has a British accent.

It's the best.

Neil McPhedran: I think, more and
more, and we've got a couple coming

up of others in Europe and other
Canadians that we're gonna be talking

to in some coming episodes, I'm
really excited to be reaching broadly

around the world and just sort of
exploring what's going on in academic

podcasting, university podcasting.

And it's just really amazing to
see sort of what's happening on

campuses and in academic research.

But why don't we just end it there.

That was such a good conversation.

I'm not sure we could add anything more.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, there we go.

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