Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Jason Boyd: I really think if we, in literary studies, if we just completely ignore video games,
we are missing out on a huge body of work that could really enrich our teaching and our research.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast
for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran.

Founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of Jpod Creations and Podcasting is Broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other.

Please join our community at HigherEdPods.com.

Neil McPhedran: Okay Jen, in this episode we speak with Jason Boyd
and Patrick Dolan from the Playable Stories: Unarchived podcast.

And this is a podcast from the Toronto Metropolitan University formerly known as Ryerson.

This is a really interesting one actually.

I say that about all of them but it is.

Playable Stories Archive is a curated guide for teachers and researchers.

Now this is primarily for those that are in literary studies,
so quite a focused podcast audience that they're targeting here.

Ultimately, this podcast and the program that Jason and Patrick are part of
is a resource for teachers, post secondary and secondary teachers, who are
interested in learning about and teaching story rich video games, digital games
that can be included in their literary media and cultural studies courses.

This is our second one we've done that has a video game focus, but really interesting.

Although both these guys are interested in video games, obviously, coming out
of literary studies, and it's really about these super immersive video games
and how they teach about that and they've created this podcast out of it.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I just love their passion for it.

Jason admitted to us, he's very honest, that he didn't really fall in love with video games
until later in life because he realized that there was more than just violent video games.

There was different puzzle ones and things that we'll get into in a little bit when we talk to them.

But that narrative and the storytelling was really rich and deep and,
and there was a lot of like really cool things that they would never
even think about that was encompassed in the world of video games.

So I'm really excited to talk about this.

The fact that it is a tool for teachers, like that's also another
cool element because, you know, you always heard teachers back in
the day being like, don't do video games, it'll rot your brain out.

And so now that these are courses, I think this is cool.

So, uh, let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Well, why don't we just start with a quick introduction
for each of you, Patrick, why don't you start?

Patrick Dolan: Oh, sure.

My name is Patrick R.

Dolan.

I am a PhD candidate in communications and culture at York slash Toronto
Metropolitan University, studying games, pixel graphics, and sort of like
affect emotion aesthetics and the politics therein, being supervised by Jason.

Jason Boyd: My name's Jason Boyd.

I'm an Associate Professor in the Department of English at Toronto Metropolitan University.

I also direct the Stories in Play initiative, of which the Playable
Stories Archive and Playable Stories Unarchived podcast are a part of.

I'm interested in digital humanities and electronic literature
and digital games, particularly narrative rich games.

Jennifer-Lee: Probably a dumb question to ask, but did you guys play video games when
you were growing up and what really sparked you to kind of head yourself to university
to be involved in many of these different facets, I guess, of the game culture

Jason Boyd: I wasn't a huge video game player when I was younger, but when I came to TMU,
I ended up teaching a course called Narrative in a Digital Age, and I realized that it
was, it was really important to teach video games when we were talking about narrative in
a digital age, because so many games do really interesting things with telling stories.

And so I really started ramping up my game, playing as as I, as much
as I could because I wanted to find games to teach in that course.

And so that was the sort of real impetus for, you know, getting involved in games and game studies.

And also the fact that there were a number of doctoral students who
were looking for supervisors who wanted to work in game studies.

Patrick Dolan: Yeah, I've played games since I was like really young with my parents.

Had a Pong machine that I loved, and then when I was younger, we got like a family NES Nintendo.

And so like, I've been moving up, kind of like a generation
behind until recently with video games, like playing on and off.

I got into studying video games through studying movies.

My master's was in collectors of like horror DVDs and VHS.

I found Jenkins, Henry Jenkins, like, Aca-fan thing.

I was like a fan of collecting horror videos.

And I kind of moved towards collecting retro games and playing retro games.

And my interest shifted towards game studies.

And then that formed into sort of modern pixel graphics.

Jennifer-Lee: And how did your parents feel about your degree choices?

Patrick Dolan: Actually, my dad, I remember when I was getting
my master's, he told me, and this was about horror movies.

But he said, I can't believe that watching all those terrible movies has finally paid off.

I mean, it hasn't paid, paid off, but I'm doing something with it.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, it's funny because I have a theater degree.

So I feel like my parents were like, what are you doing now?

Now that I own a podcast company, they're like, oh, wow, we see it.

But I think when I first told them, they were like, okay, good luck.

Like, do we have to support you for the rest of your life?

So.

Great, great backstories.

Neil McPhedran: And actually Jen, I think maybe plucked out that first question
from our interview with Emma Vossen, who recommended the two of you guys.

So thank you, Emma.

But also she let us know that one of the things they like to do on their podcast is
ask about the video games in their background to start with before they jump into it.

So Jen, nice work there of applying what we learned from other podcasters.

Jennifer-Lee: My video game experience isn't very great, guys.

It's like Mario.

It's like very basic.

Patrick Dolan: Still valid.

Jennifer-Lee: Duck Hunter?

Do we remember that?

Patrick Dolan: Oh yeah.

Neil McPhedran: Duck Hunter.

That was a good one.

I love that one.

Maybe we should start, before we jump into the podcast, maybe we
can get our heads around the Playable Stories Archive initiative.

So perhaps give us a little bit of insight into that and then
we can jump to how the podcast lives within that initiative.

Jason Boyd: Yeah, sure.

So the inspiration for the Playable Stories Archive was basically realization
that I had had that in literary studies, we weren't talking about video
games, even though they are really interesting storytelling vehicles.

And I really thought this was a problem, right?

I really think if we in literary studies, if we just completely ignore video games, we are
missing out on a huge body of work that could really enrich our teaching and our research.

And I realized that one of the big stumbling blocks is that, you know, a lot of my peers
and colleagues either don't have experience playing games or just don't know where to start
in thinking about how would I include a game in my traditional literature course on X.

So, the Playable Stories Archive was basically a way to help
teachers realize how they could teach certain games in their courses.

So it picks games that are appropriately scoped and that have an interesting literary connection.

Provides a fairly comprehensive introduction to those games so that
teachers can look through the entries, understand what the game is about,
and then make a decision whether or not they could include it in a course.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I think there's such a stigma though around
certain subjects especially when it comes to post secondary education.

Like games, like theater, know it.

People don't take these courses valid because they just think, oh, video games.

That's what my kid did in the eighties and he rotted his brain out and then
he's living on my couch and draining all my money, but that's not what it is.

And now that I've gone on to move my career more into podcasting, I really realize that so many
topics that you learn in university, the film courses, the theater courses, the gaming courses.

There's a lot of really good core skills that you learn on that, especially for like
critical thinking and people don't think about management later in life, being able to lead.

And I think sometimes we pooh pooh these because they're not
the traditional things like learning math and learning sciences.

So I love the fact that you guys were able to open this up and
be like, actually what we're doing is we're showcasing games.

And something that Emma said too, and I noticed in
their podcast was something I didn't really think about.

They really look at the design of video games and that people are
bringing more diversity and inclusion and emotion into the games.

We're practicing what we're preaching through other mediums.

Patrick Dolan: Yeah, definitely.

I think also games, the stuff Games Institute are doing at Waterloo is fantastic.

I think also there's definitely like a deemphasis of the importance of play.

Just in life, it's just as, you know, important as everything else to life and well being.

And so that's seen as frivolous, as like, less than.

So when you're studying play, especially something that is kind of similar to
how movies were seen as spectacles, it's really hard to get them taken seriously.

And I think in academia, in certain areas of academia that I've encountered
in my little like humanities, media studies bubble, that they're totally,
you know, departments are like, ooh, let's get some game studies in, but I
think general public, they're still seen as frivolous kind of kid's toys.

Neil McPhedran: Which reality is it's a wrong way to think about it.

The gaming industry is actually, outsizes massively the movie industry.

It's probably bigger, I don't know this for a fact, but it's probably
as big as the book industry if you've sort of looked at it as a whole.

So, to put a lens of not as important on it is definitely a flawed approach when
you sort of look at the size of the economy of the gaming industry, for sure.

Yeah, really interesting stuff.

So, let's jump to the podcast.

How does a podcast play into the initiative?

And maybe start with a little bit of a genesis of how you arrived at launching a podcast.

Jason Boyd: I think the inspiration was, I think it was probably due to the
first game we looked at in our first episode, which was The Witness, right?

The Witness was a game where I'm like, oh, this is such an interesting game.

It's such an interesting game to, to talk about.

I could never, ever see including it in a course, right?

And we talk about why that is, like, it's fairly long.

It's fairly challenging.

It's not entirely clear what the story is, or if there's a story.

So there's all of these kind of vague aspects of the game, but it's still a really interesting
game to talk about, to give context maybe to games that you might teach in a course.

So the idea behind the podcast was like, look, there are all these games that are never
going to make it into the Playable Stories Archive, that are highly unlikely that anyone
would actually be able to teach in a course, but we still want to talk about them, right?

Because they are doing something interesting in terms of story and narrative.

So, so let's have a podcast.

And it turns out, you know, there are just as many, if not more games that would be
suitable for the Unarchived Podcast than there is for the Playable Stories Archive.

Jennifer-Lee: For someone that doesn't have an amazing repertoire of knowledge of video games, can
you just give us, just so I have a better idea and the audience, a little premise of The Witness.

Is it more like shooting or is it more like really deep and storytelling?

Jason Boyd: Yeah, so essentially it's a first person walking simulator where you're wandering
around this very strange island and you have to solve all of the basically, line puzzles.

And you stumble across things like these statues and these audio
recordings that have these very deep philosophical quotations from
people like Einstein and, and other sort of great thinkers, right?

But it's just a kind of open exploration game, and you, as you work your way through it,
part of the challenge is trying to figure out, what is actually going on in this island,
and who am I, and why am I here, and what is the entire purpose of what I'm doing, right?

So it becomes a very interesting philosophical exploration, I
think, of essentially perception, how we perceive things, right?

How we come to know things, how we come to understand things, and how, you know,
various factors can change our perspective on what we see and what we know.

Jennifer-Lee: That's deep.

I didn't know video games got that deep.

I thought it was just about shooting and getting to the next level.

I definitely gonna have to re listen.

Jason Boyd: No shooting, no falling, no dying.

Jennifer-Lee: I kind of feel like this is a game that I'd rather play actually.

You kind of mentioned it a little bit versus Unarchived
and Archived because you were saying this one's Unarchived.

Can you explain what you're, you're talking about there?

Jason Boyd: The basic distinction there is, uh, the Playable Stories Archive contains, you
know, written, fairly full entries describing, a game and how you could teach it in a course.

And often provides things like walkthroughs and descriptions, so that, you
know, an instructor or a student can quickly get up to speed on a game.

And then the Unarchived podcasts are basically all those games that would not be suitable.

for an entry in the Playable Stories Archive, right?

So there are more games that you, you might want to talk about in a
course, you might want to introduce your students to, but you never
would actually ask them to play it as a requirement of the course.

Neil McPhedran: I see, I see.

So just for the audience benefit then, is this two separate feeds, or is this the same feed?

That you're dropping the Unarchived or the Archived in?

Jason Boyd: They're both hosted on StoriesInPlay.com and there's one
area of that site that has the Playable Stories Archive with the entries.

But then there's another, that's the Unarchived podcast that lists all the episodes, so
they're clearly kind of reflecting each other, but the format is completely different.

So entry, the Playable Stories Archive, written, visual, podcast, audio, people talking.

Neil McPhedran: Got it.

Got it.

Okay, great.

That's great.

I think what's really interesting about your podcast is it's, and correct
me if I've got this wrong, and from what I've listened and researched
and what we've talked about, your audience is actually teachers.

Is that correct?

Or does it aperture a little bit wider to, it's also a
resource for teachers to share with students as well?

Patrick Dolan: I think our ideal audience is teachers, educators, and like,
scholars, just people interested in learning about games and teaching about games.

But I don't know, Jason, do we actually, I don't think we've done any kind
of statistical survey or work on it, so we don't know for sure, but from
the feedback we get, it seems mostly like people teaching in academia.

Jason Boyd: Yeah, yeah, I think the idea was we wanted basically
teachers to get over their anxieties about teaching games, right?

Um, we wanted to say, okay, uh, you might not be, you know, uh, a hardcore gamer, right?

But you can still teach these courses and we're going to help you.

We're going to give you the resources to do that, right?

But of course, it also, is advantageous.

to also provide that information for students because, and I've had this happen, you
know, students get stuck in a game and say, I can't, I can't get, I'm stuck in this game.

I gotta finish it.

How can I finish it?

You'd say, well, just go to the entry.

There's a walk through there.

You know, I don't have to like sort of sit down beside you at the computer and walk you through it.

You can just look at that resource.

So it does have that sort of double benefit, right?

My experience has been that it's wrong to assume that every student under 22 that you have in
a class is born with a controller in their hands and can play any game without any problem.

It's just not the case.

Jennifer-Lee: People just playing games have it so easy.

Remember back in the day when you couldn't get to the next
level and that's it, you just couldn't get to the next level.

You couldn't like go on the internet 'cause it didn't exist.

Maybe you talked to your friend.

Maybe you gave him a call.

Jason Boyd: Exactly.

Jennifer-Lee: Way easier.

I feel like they're cheating in a way.

You should have to like, get to the next level on your own.

It's so unique because usually when Neil and I talk to people, especially specifically
on this podcast, when it comes to continuing studies, a lot of their podcasts
are for prospective students or for students that are currently taking classes.

The fact that you guys are kind of doing a two prong approach where it's mainly to
teachers, but it is also a benefit for the teachers to aid them in helping their students.

I think that's really cool.

You also have, which I like, and I don't think enough podcasts do this, but, uh, you do have
a narrative approach on how you're telling the story, and you just kind of did it already.

I kind of gave you a little test earlier when I was like, tell
me about The Witness and you did an amazing narrative of that.

I actually felt like I was there.

So, um, why was it important for you guys to have this concept for your podcast?

Patrick Dolan: I think probably, coming from it, from The Witness and
then our most recent one, Book of Travels, which was like a special
summer one, Jason really kind of set the outline for the podcast.

And it, and really you're trying to hit, and maybe you could talk better of this,
but trying to hit like all aspects of the game that you could want to teach.

So like narrative, we have aesthetics, we have context, you
know, production context, especially for Book of Travels.

Probably we went into the most of the production context ever.

I think we talk a bit about it, but in other podcasts we talk a lot more about the formal elements.

Jason Boyd: Yeah, I think the podcast is great because I think it allows us to expand
beyond the very pragmatic approach that the Playable Stories Archive has, right?

Where you're kind of, get the information, put it in
a nice sort of tidy format, and make it available.

I think the podcast is often, you know, pulls the scope larger and talks about some
of these other issues that are relevant to gaming, and so it provides a really good, I
think, broader context that the entries of the Playable Stories Archive fit into, right?

It helps, it helps teachers understand that, you know, games function within a very specific
culture, within a very specific context, within a very specific economic system, and those
things are important sometimes to draw in because they do affect things like the story.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Getting into the weeds a bit of, of the podcast itself, looks
like we have a fairly large team that work on the podcast.

And I would imagine this has to do somewhat with the fact that it's not an
interview style podcast, like this one is where you're interviewing people.

And there's a lot of work that would go into the resource side of
it, but then also turning that resource into a podcast component.

So maybe just sort of break down the team, if you will, that works with you both on the
podcast and your roles and how you've brought other folks into this larger podcast team.

Patrick Dolan: Well, I mean, Jason, I don't know if it's just like great people flock to
Jason, or Jason has an eye for great people, but this is Jason's sort of, like, vision.

He brought me in and he brought in just a team of people who are like, enthusiastic about games,
enthusiastic about teaching games and enthusiastic about being on and participating in the podcast.

I just want to name everybody's name out just so they can,

Neil McPhedran: Please do.

Patrick Dolan: So we have myself, Patrick, Jason, there's
Alex, there's Chelsea, Jeremy, Kevin, Noah, and Taryn.

And then in the upcoming episode, which will, I think it's on Myst, we're
gonna have Tanya, who's a new addition that we're really excited about.

Tanya's awesome.

But for the roles, we split it into, I think we try and do three roles in each podcast.

So we have the writer, we have the producer, and then we have sort of the panelists.

So the writer would kind of like set the outline, write the script or set up prompts like questions.

The producer is the person, we record through Discord.

And I think Jeremy and I are the two editors.

So we take turns producing and I think he uses Audacity.

I use Audacity too.

And yeah, everyone takes turns being a writer and a panelist
and everybody has games they want to talk about and post about.

So it's really great.

Like we don't run out of things to do.

Jason Boyd: I just wanted to add, basically, part of the impetus for the podcast
was, I found I had all these great students, like, graduate students, and I
said, you know what, let's, let's get together, let's do a podcast, right, since
you're, since we're all doing game studies, why don't we, you know, do a podcast.

And, and this has been really helpful because it enables me to work
with my students in a way that I otherwise wouldn't be able to.

And it's led to things like collaborative conference
presentations and articles for collections and stuff like that.

So this has been a great way to kind of incubate this teacher
student collaboration that I've really found immensely rewarding.

Neil McPhedran: I just think that that's really interesting that It's not just you
decided to do a podcast as a channel to further the work you're doing with the initiative.

And obviously there's a benefit for teachers and researchers
on the other end who are your listening audience.

But this is actually part of your process, Jason, in your
role as, as a leader for these graduate students and whatnot.

I really wanted to pause on that.

I think that's a really interesting insight for our listening audience who are also in academia.

Jason Boyd: I would say podcasts are a great entry
point into collaborating with your students, right?

If you're kind of worried about, you know, where to
start this, this is one way that you can do that.

Patrick Dolan: I wanted to add that at the communications and culture
program, which many of us who do the podcast are in, is very spread out.

It's very vast.

It's held across two universities in Toronto.

So finding a community, like us on the team are, you know, relatively close and it's
nice to have sort of like a spot to meet and just kind of like chat about stuff too.

Talk about games even too.

Like, so that's, that's been really helpful as well.

Jennifer-Lee: For people that are thinking about maybe recreating or copying you guys,
as I like to call it, what are some things that you would recommend them not to do?

Like, what are some learnings that you had?

Because every time we do a podcast, I know everyone has a different
things that pop up and they're like, oh, okay, I'll never do that again.

Or I will do this in the future.

Patrick Dolan: I think we didn't have this problem because we made the smart
choice of releasing the podcast once a month and taking a summer break.

But making a schedule that is sustainable, like starting at once a month, is such a great idea.

Having two editors, I think even having three editors would be great.

But having more than one editor because that, it's not
necessarily like a bigger job than say being the host.

But it is a more intimidating job.

So depending on how often you want to do or what everybody's capacity is, making
sure you have more than one person to fill different roles, especially with academia,
where you have a bunch of other things that you're juggling at the same time.

Jason Boyd: Yeah.

And I think one of the things that has worked really well for us is, I think
we're highly tolerant of different ways of approaching the creation of a podcast.

I, I am very like, I want a full script, you know, um, ready before we start, right?

Other people are like, oh, let's just have, you know, a bunch
of sort of topics and we'll just kind of freewheel them, right?

I'm willing to hand things over to other members of the team
and let them do a podcast the way that they feel is appropriate.

Like, I'm not on every podcast, so it really is a kind of collaborative teamwork that I think
is accommodating of different ways of thinking about how to do a kind of scholarly podcast.

And I think that kind of flexibility can be very helpful
if you want a sustainable, collaborative project like this.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

I want to go back to one thing, you record on Discord?

Patrick Dolan: Yes.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

It's the cool kid platform.

It's basically it's, for our audience out there, I mean, most of you
probably know, but it's essentially Slack for gamers to put it bluntly.

It's an incredible platform, but you actually record on Discord.

Patrick Dolan: Yes.

So we have, we have our own Discord for the podcast.

And then we have like a voice channel.

If you've ever been in a Discord, there can be like a voice chatting channel.

And then we have a, I don't know if it's called like a bot or an app that is called Craig
and it records your voice and then sends you a link to an option of audios like you can
get it all at once in a mp3 file or get it in like an already an Audacity file format.

And actually I learned to do that through Games Institute podcasting with First Person Scholar.

That's how they did it.

And so that's, you know, how I learned to do it.

Neil McPhedran: Wow.

Well, you're definitely the first podcast that we've talked to.

I mean, maybe we just didn't ask the question and we didn't know this, but I think
the first time we've come across this as a way to record, that's super interesting.

Does it record, is it then recording each person locally?

Like we're in SquadCast here, in SquadCast what it's doing
is we get all the files after, um, it's recording locally.

And then putting those local recordings for each of us into a cloud recording as separate channels.

Is that?

Patrick Dolan: Yes.

Neil McPhedran: Okay, great.

Patrick Dolan: Yeah, we get it as, how I use it, yeah, is that it comes in the Audacity
file, I open up the Audacity file, everybody's voice is in a different channel.

Yeah, it's so nice for like equalizing and,

Neil McPhedran: That is really neat.

I, I love all the just the different ways that, I've
been doing podcasting for a little over four years now.

Jen's been on it longer than I.

But just even in the last two years the technology advances, outside
of all the AI stuff, but just like what we just talked about, it's
super fascinating and the different ways that people are approaching.

Which is an old school medium from an internet perspective, podcasting that is, but there's
this renaissance of more and more people coming to it and how people are approaching it.

And I just love your way of approaching it.

You just even, you have multiple hosts, uh, and different voices
on every episode, which again is something that is not the norm.

Most podcasts are the same person or the same two people as your regular host.

So I really like the different approach you're taking.

Patrick Dolan: Yeah, I like to imagine people listening have their favorite hosts
and they're like always excited when they're on or, or like favorite guests.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

You'll have to do a listener survey and find out who truly is the favorite.

Patrick Dolan: I don't want to know though.

Neil McPhedran: Maybe you don't want to know that.

Jennifer-Lee: No, it's going to create a rift and then you guys
are going to be like the Beatles or something that like split up.

Patrick Dolan: Yeah.

Neil McPhedran: And this great harmonious situation that Jason
painted a couple of minutes ago is going to, you don't want that.

Bad idea, Neil.

That's wonderful.

And then, and then once a month, I think is great, but back to your point, Patrick.

And we like to say this too, like, what is achievable?

And stick to that.

Don't try to overreach.

Like always recommend with new podcasts, we start with like once a week is really aggressive.

So start with something that's achievable, but you have to stick to it.

And also I just think it's audience expectation.

One of my pet peeves is, I don't think there's a problem with
taking a summer hiatus, especially in the academic world.

I think that's a natural fit.

But not telling the audience what's going on is to me the issue.

It's like, let them know we're taking a break.

Like you can put that in the show, you can put that in your show notes, but just giving the
audience the expectation that there's an episode once a month, you're going to take a summer break.

Everyone knows what's going on.

Then that's great.

It's this leaving people hanging like, uh oh, the podcast end?

So yeah, that's great.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you guys so much for being on here.

We really appreciate it.

I feel like we've talked to you all day.

You've actually changed my mind about games.

I didn't realize there were non shooting games.

So that's good.

Patrick Dolan: Jason, you've said you specifically don't like games with violence or combat.

Jason Boyd: Yeah, and and they're often very mechanically
different to play and I'm thinking of accessibility, right?

You know, I don't want to expect that my students can engage in this
sort of very aggressive, very kind of, you know, complicated gameplay.

So I'm always looking for games that are as widely
accessible as possible to as many students as possible.

Neil McPhedran: Great.

And your podcast is available?

We're going to drop the link into our show notes, obviously,
but podcast is available across all listening apps I presume.

Jason Boyd: Yeah, we're on, uh, SoundCloud and,

Patrick Dolan: We recently got on Spotify, but I think, I think we're hosted elsewhere.

That's another team member that got us on Spotify and elsewhere.

Jason Boyd: Yeah.

And there are links to the Spotify and to the SoundCloud channel.

So you can go to either of those, your preference.

Neil McPhedran: Well, we'll be sure to drop those into our show notes, but yeah.

Thanks for joining us today.

And it was really, really interesting to hear about your podcast and your podcast journey.

So thank you so much.

Patrick Dolan: It was so nice meeting you guys.

Jennifer-Lee: You know, I'm starting to love video
games after a few of these episodes we've been doing.

I was just like a Mario and a Sonic person, but now I really kind
of want to go to these schools and study these interesting courses.

And the neat thing about this podcast, which is a bit different than
the one that we did with Emma Vossen, is this is actually for teachers.

And that they are helping teachers teach this curriculum that's, you know, still kind of new,
in a fun, engaging way and helping the students and the teacher understand the purpose of it.

So, I think that's really neat.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

It's interesting in our journey of talking to higher education podcasters about
how different and focused on different niches podcasts can be within this space.

So we've talked to podcasters that have created resources
for students so that go along with their podcasts textbook.

Or podcasts that for alumni.

And then this one is for other teachers, whether that's post secondary or secondary.

And how they're using the medium of podcasting in a really interesting way for,
well, in this case, super dense subject matter, both these long form video games that
are quite a dense journey, and then they're creating these resources for teaching.

And then the podcast is a key component of those resources.

So really, really interesting as we move along on our journey of interviewing
higher education podcasters, we continue to be surprised and delighted
by the different ways people are using this fantastic podcasting medium.

So.

Excited to keep going, Jen, and, uh, keep interviewing exciting things
that are happening in the higher education podcasting space, but why
don't we call it, uh, for this episode and why don't you read us out?

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing
Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters.

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See you in the next episode.