Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Jeff Goodes: The first thing I always talk
to people about is like, who do you wanna

reach and what do you wanna tell them?

And what value can you give to
them that will make them wanna

spend a half an hour with you?

So a lot of people, you know, we have the
idea podcasting for a general audience.

But there's, it's really important
to think of the potential for

podcasting as a narrow casting
tool for a specific audience.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies, a podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran.

Founder of Podium Podcast
Company and HigherEdPods.com.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
the founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

And we want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there, and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: You are
right Jen, as usual.

And there is, continues to
be lots of exciting things

going on in HigherEdPods.com.

I think we mentioned we have
launched a Slack channel.

So if you join in the top right
corner of the website, you will

see through there, you'll see an
invitation to join the Slack channel.

We're getting people joining almost
every day, starting to get some

good conversation going there.

And if you wanna connect with
fellow higher education podcasters,

it's a great place to do it.

So I would encourage you to go
to the website and join, but also

just sort of check out all the new
podcasts that keep getting added.

Again, like daily.

We're getting near 1200 now in there.

So really getting some critical mass.

Jennifer-Lee: It's a party
in that Slack channel.

Neil McPhedran: Today, on this
episode, we are chatting with

Jeff Goodes, fellow Canadian.

Jennifer-Lee: Another person you
met in America that's Canadian.

Neil McPhedran: That's
right, that's correct.

Yes.

Jeff and I met at Podcast Movement
in Vegas a few years back, a

couple years back, and we've
kept in contact since then.

Jeff was, at the time when we met,
he was actually just leaving the

CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting
Corporation, where he was a producer

and journalist for many years and
worked on numerous radio programs.

And more and more podcasts near
the end of his career there.

Notably, he was the executive
producer on Dr. Brian Goldman's White

Coat, Black Art, which if you're
Canadian, you know what that is.

For the non-Canadians out there, that
is CBC Radio's National Medical Program.

So it's a very popular radio show and
obviously a podcast now too because CBC

does such a good job with the podcasts.

Jeff has brought all of that wonderful
experience now into the world of

podcasting where he is focused.

And he actually has worked with a
number of higher education institutions.

Notably, he was the journalist in
residence for a couple of years,

just ending last year, with McMaster
University's Faculty of Science.

So we have a really great
conversation with Jeff.

And Jen, he's a fellow broadcaster,
so you know, we may talk about that.

Jennifer-Lee: You know that's my favorite.

Not only that, I've just realized a
pattern with you, because you go to these

podcast conferences in America and you
meet really cool people that are part

of broadcasting and are podcasters.

Neil McPhedran: I dunno, come talk
to me if you're a former broadcaster.

Jennifer-Lee: And you're Canadian.

Neil McPhedran: And you're Canadian.

There you go.

Jennifer-Lee: I just think it's funny
because we go to these conferences

and there's so many amazing people
from all over the world, or sometimes

mainly from America, and they're
so talented and there's maybe

one or two or three Canadians.

Somehow we all find each other still.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

That is quite amazing.

Well, what's exciting is, is speaking
of conferences coming out of PodCon,

we have a whole bunch of interviews
lined up with folks and conversations.

So over the next weeks and months, we'll
be rolling through a bunch of amazing

folks that attended the Higher Ed PodCon,
and we are going to bring them to this

podcast and talk to them about their
experience in higher education podcasting.

But otherwise, why don't we just get into
this one with Jeff, because it's really

interesting how we talk about storytelling
and how good old journalism has such an

important role in podcasting, especially
for higher education podcasters.

Jennifer-Lee: So let's learn from Jeff.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Jeff, it's great to have you join
us here on Continuing Studies.

Jeff Goodes: Thanks for having me.

I'm looking forward to it.

What could possibly go wrong?

Neil McPhedran: What
could possibly go wrong?

It's nice having a
fellow Canadian on today.

Jennifer-Lee: Rare.

It's so rare.

I was like, what?

Neil McPhedran: So good.

So awesome.

So Jeff, we met a couple of years
ago, uh, at Podcast Movement

Evolutions in Vegas, right?

It was the biggest one, I think.

Yes.

You were just starting your
journey from stepping away from

a number of years at the CBC.

So for those of you listeners, that's
the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation,

and you had spent a bunch of time there
producing some amazing radio shows such

as White Coat, Black Art, which was great.

And now you've made your way into
this exciting world of higher

education academic podcast.

So maybe just give us a little bit of
insight into who you've been working

with, what institutions you've been
working with, and some of the specific

podcasts you've been working on lately.

Jeff Goodes: I retired from the CBC two
years ago, and I've never been busier, so.

Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to not retirement.

Jeff Goodes: Yeah.

Is the not retirement podcast.

I was very fortunate because right outta
the gate I met with, I was connected

with Jay Robb, who is the manager
of communications, I believe, with

the Faculty of Science at McMaster.

And we sat down, and he was doing
something that he was really

passionate about, which was having
a journalist in residence within

the Faculty of Science of McMaster.

And he had done one and Avis Favaro
had, had done that the year prior

from, who was with CTV for many years.

And he invited me to take part in
it and I was just like thrilled.

So that was like the first
thing right out of retirement.

I basically went out for dinner and
then the next day showed up for work.

So that was a lot of fun and
that was a kind of a learning

opportunity, 'cause there's no
template for this particular position.

You just figure out what, what you could
possibly offer to them and, and go do it.

So we decided the best thing that I could
do would be to do media training with

some of the profs, talk to them about
what they're doing and, and how best to

communicate that to different audiences.

And then I did a number of
presentations and then we decided,

well, it's one thing to talk about
it, but it's another thing to do it.

So let's invite some of
the faculty onto a podcast.

We'll create a podcast and one thing
that they had been wanting to do is to

demystify some of the faculty for some of
their undergrads and master's students,

and to demystify the academic process.

Like how do you get to be a prof? How do
you go from undergrad to master's to what

happens in between that to PhD postdoc?

It's quite a route, right?

And for a lot of people who might be
interested in it, it's kind of daunting.

So we created this podcast
called Moment Mentor Memento.

So we would ask a prof to sit down and
think about a moment that helped define

their career, and a mentor who helped 'em
get there, and a memento that they carry

with them to remind them of their journey.

And so that was a way of
opening up the journey of how

people got to where they are.

And it was very interesting for me as a
person to discover that almost to each and

every one of them, no one had a straight
line to what they were gonna do, right?

It was always, like you think of people
being, like a lot of young students

today are, are being asked to, you
know, they're quite driven, right?

And they're quite focused and
they're like, oh, we gotta do this.

We gotta, you know, we gotta make
sure that, you know, everything's

gotta be in the perfect order.

And reality is that that doesn't happen.

So it was refreshing to bring a
humanity or a, a little piece of

humanity into, into something that a
lot of people found quite daunting.

So that was one.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that you were
saying that it's not a straight

line, and the fact that you created
a podcast to demystify the idea of a

professor, because I think that's a
problem too, is like they always say

the old adage, those who can't do teach.

So you think a lot of the times
that these teachers are just

people that never made it in their
career and that is so not true.

Some of the best professors are people
that have had lengthy, amazing careers.

Again, they were not a straight line, they
just didn't go into teaching, that's it.

They did a zigzag and they were
able to gather all their knowledge.

Then be in the position that
they're in now to teach people.

So I think having a podcast like
that is a great way to open up the

door for people to understand a
professor relationship to student.

Jeff Goodes: Well, here's another thing
I learned is that with, you're hired

to be a professor, you're not hired on
your ability to teach or to communicate,

you're hired on your research.

And you're expected, like
that's expected to be kind of

the primary thing that you do.

And then it's like, oh, by the
way, you're teaching five classes.

And then so these profs get thrown
into this kind of big soup of

teaching, and a lot of 'em have
like zero experience, zero training.

So I was working with the McCall
MacBain Postdoc Foundation, it was

another group I was working with.

And they, their vision is to
teach future professors how to

teach and how to communicate.

So we created a podcast as well
for these folks as a learning tool.

And we called it, This
Could Change Everything.

And it was a way of getting postdocs
to be able to explain their research

to a broader audience and to
hone their communication process.

Which kind of highlights one of the
big things about academic podcasting

is that it reaches a lot of different
audiences and it has a lot of different

purposes depending on what you're doing.

So, so those are a few examples
of what I've been doing.

Neil McPhedran: I love that.

I always like when we come across,
I mean, I completely agree.

It's amazing, and Jen and I, sort
of doing this for a couple of years

now, have just met so many amazing
people, literally around the world,

doing so many different things in
academia, higher education, podcasting.

And I love when we hear stories like
you're telling us where it's using

podcasting as part of the process or
as part of the teaching, or in this

case as part of the learning process.

That example you just gave is like, the
bonus is there's a podcast at the end,

but it's the making of the podcast that's
part of the process and the learning.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely, and I was
working with another client who was

creating a podcast as an asynchronous
learning tool for her, so she can use it

for her first year students and second
year students as a way of, instead of

sitting in a room full of 500 people, you
can start by listening to the podcast,

and then you've got the foundation.

So instead of listening to someone at the
front of the room for a long time, you can

listen to your professor do an interview.

It creates a human connection with them.

It becomes, you know, there's
an engagement happening.

Then you go to the lecture, you're
bringing something to it, you

know, there's already a connection
between the student and the teacher.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Jennifer-Lee: I just love, Neil, that
like, and you kind of touched upon a bit,

is the fact that we've been doing this
for two years and every time I think we're

gonna talk to somebody, it's gonna be
the exact same concept, it's different.

I think you're the first one, Jeff, that
we've talked to that really pulls back

on who the teachers are, your podcast.

Because usually other podcasts that
we've done have been about very

certain topics like science or art.

And that's something that I talk about
to people and I think Neil and I do this

with both companies, is that podcasts
are beyond, of course, you want listens

and exposure, but they're great tools.

They can be used as communication tools.

They can be used as business
relationship building tools.

I've heard a lot of people, someone
he introduced me to, talked about

that people are using it as a
resume and a way to get jobs.

I just like that you're thinking outside
of just what a traditional podcast is.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely.

And you know, within a university
environment, you're not going

to create a podcast that's gonna
be on the top 1% of downloads.

The first thing I always talk to
people about is like, who do you wanna

reach and what do you wanna tell them?

And what value can you give to
them that will make them wanna

spend a half an hour with you?

So a lot of people, you know, we
have the idea of podcasting for a

general audience, but there's, it's
really important to think of the

potential for podcasting as a narrow
casting tool for specific audiences.

And in academia that's
very, very important.

So whether you're talking to your
peers or whether you're talking to a

specific group of people that's very much
interested in what you're doing or whether

you're talking with students, or whether
you're using it as a fundraising tool.

You know, it can be very effective
in that way to create that

kind of content that begins a
conversation with a potential funder.

So lots of different ways you can use it.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that you
just said fundraising tool.

That's something else
that I never thought of.

Like I thought about it as business
relationship building or community

building, but fundraising tool
would be a really great way too.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

For alumni podcast.

I guess we have talked to a few
alumni podcasts, but we haven't

really gotten into the fundraising
side, so yeah, it's great.

So Jeff, coming out of the CBC, sort
of working in public broadcasting,

was it a natural progression to
move into academic podcasting?

Did you find there was sort
of a natural fit there?

Like curious sort of how you
ended up getting into this world

of academic podcasting coming
from a public broadcaster.

Jeff Goodes: Well, when it
happens, at the time it seems

like it just kind of happens.

But then you look back and you
go, okay, yeah, there are definite

reasons why this happened.

So one reason was, in retrospect,
the time you're just like, I

don't know what's going on.

But I did my master's
about five years ago.

Neil McPhedran: Oh, great.

Jeff Goodes: Through Royal Roads.

I did a masters in Learning and
Technology, and I focused on podcasting

as much as I could through that.

My last sort of big thing was
to, uh, focus on podcasting as a

learning tool for medical residents.

Which kind of tied into my work
with White Coat, Black Art.

And because what the White Coat,
Black Art was often used as a tool

for, for learning in universities.

It was often assigned
or, or just organically.

People would come up to you and go,
you know, I listened to your show

and I was studying to be a doctor
in residence and so it's fantastic.

And you know, so I did my masters in
that and that went really, enjoyed that.

And then when I retired I decided,
well, what I'm gonna do now is I'm

going to work for people I like who
are doing things that are interesting

and might just move the needle a bit.

The cool thing about working on a medical
show is that it can be very technical, but

it always affects you as a person, right?

Because we all have the same body.

We all have minds, things that
are studied through medicine, so

there's always a connection point.

That makes medicine kind of an
easy sell to a larger audience.

When I was doing my masters, talking about
medical students, using a lot of podcasts,

they were like podcast super users.

The reason is that I was like,
why are they podcast super users?

So I did a little digging and
looked into a lot of the studies

and talked to different people.

And the reasons that I came up with were,
you know, one, this is a great group

to become podcast users 'cause their
goal is to assimilate a huge amount of

information quickly and in a very kind
of competitive, pressurized environment.

So they're learning constantly.

So if they can learn while they're
cooking dinner or taking the bus home

or shopping or cleaning up the house by
listening to a podcast, then that's great.

So there's, there's that.

And then the other thing that, that
they really liked was the fact that

you can stop and go back, right?

Great thing about podcasting you
can stop, go back 30 seconds.

I've listened to that again.

You know, it's very flexible that way.

But the most important thing that
they referenced like over and over

again, which was a big surprise
to me, was the human connection.

Because being in medical
school can be very isolating.

It's very competitive.

And you know, and they would
say, like when you ask people

why they love podcasts, people
would love the human connection.

The fact that they would form the,
that kind of parasocial relationship

with the host and they would love that.

And that was very important to them.

And that really struck me because that's
being, working at the CBC, you know what

kind of effect radio has on people and
what kind of relationship people form

with you listening to you every week.

And so I would, I kind of, I understood
that, but I underestimated the power.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

When we chatted with Dr. White from
Surgery 101, he had some great stories

just about how when he would go to medical
conferences, he told us about that he

went to a medical conference in Ireland.

And he was speaking and found out
he was in a room full of people

that have listened to his podcast
and thought they all knew him and

were friends with him already.

And so it was just such an amazing
experience for him because it was

like this friendly audience that was,
everyone was super excited to meet him

and to say hi to him because just to
your point, they had made that it, you

know, they'd all made in their minds this
personal relationship with, with him.

And I know that I do that with
the podcasts that I listen to.

Like if I ever saw some of these hosts
on the street, I'd be like, hey, you're

my best friend, kind of a thing, right?

Such an intimate relationship
we form with the podcast hosts.

Jennifer-Lee: And then the other thing
going on top of that, which I love the

one-to-one communication is that, you
know, there are so many experts in all

these different fields, and not one
person knows it all or has different

takes on some of the information.

So I like the fact that these podcasts are
making education so accessible around the

world so we can have those conversations.

Like the Surgery 101 guy, like he's
going to Ireland and he is talking to

other people and it's like, yeah, they
have people that study what he does in

Ireland, but everyone has a little bit
of a different take on it, which I like.

Jeff Goodes: And you think about the life
of a surgeon, like a surgeon is part of

a team, but he works in isolation, right?

He doesn't know what's going on
in different cities or different

continents or just different hospitals.

So the ability of a podcast to bring
that network of people together is

super valuable for professionals.

Neil McPhedran: So, Jeff, now that you've
been, I guess, quote unquote full on

into the podcasting world over the past
couple of years, what have you been

seeing, especially with your deep radio
background, like what has been sort of

happening in the podcast world over the
past couple of years, especially with

this academic higher education podcasting?

Jeff Goodes: I always see that there's
a great interest in podcasting.

And I think, you know, I don't know
what the demographics are, the average

podcast listener, but I'm sure that
those who are in higher education

or a bachelor's or a higher degree
probably listen to a lot of podcasts.

'Cause they are, people talk to you
about podcasts and they're like, oh,

I'm a big fan of this podcast or that
podcast and, and so, you know, just as

listeners, I meet a lot of people who
are extraordinarily into podcasting.

The other thing is, it's interesting
to note how quickly it has become

legitimized within the academic world.

And when I was doing my Masters,
it was kind of like, you know, it

was a little fringy to talk there.

There weren't a ton of studies
on podcasting and now like

there are thousands, you know?

Thousands and thousands of papers.

So it's at McMaster University where
I was working, they have a media lab.

They had just installed a
really nice podcast studio.

So they started with, this is probably
typical with a lot of universities.

They started with a little booth
where people would go in and talk

into the microphone and you know,
do their own podcast one-on-one

or do a phoner or something.

And then they created this nice
studio with a road caster and

three or four mics so that people
could do interviews like that.

And then they built another
one it was so popular.

So they had two podcast studios now at
McMaster, plus the little booth thing.

The spoken word is becoming such
an important part of learning.

And I think that when it comes to AI,
the big elephant in the room breathing

down our necks, I think podcasting is
going to be one of those things that

will allow us to authentically connect
to each other in a learning environment.

Only us real human beings for the
moment have the ability to, to

actually be, you know, tangible
and be in the real world, right?

So we could apply knowledge and you
know, one of the great thing about

podcasting is to take a study and
actually apply it to the real world.

Right?

And to critique it properly, right?

And to, you know, to, to talk
about real world experiences.

And that's something that AI can't do.

And so we need to value
that and understand that.

We're all hyped and excited about AI.

But I think in that hype, we have
to be extraordinarily careful

as to the limitations of it.

And I was, just did Aberdeen
at a science communication

conference and I did a fun thing.

'Cause, you know, I'm not a scientist, I
can't present papers or whatever, but I,

they had this performance element and I
did a live debate with CahtGPT, podcasting

versus AI, which was kind of fun.

The point was that we have to we value
the authenticity of what we do as

communicators and what we do as academics,
and we can't sell it down the road to

AI and not appreciate what it is that we
bring to the conversation as human beings.

Neil McPhedran: That's
a really good point.

I like that idea too,
of the live demo there.

That's great.

Jeff Goodes: It was pretty funny.

Neil McPhedran: That's good.

When we talked previously, you mentioned
how you think podcasting is a great

medium to make research more accessible.

I think you kind of talked a little
bit about it previously in our

conversation here, but maybe can
you unpack that a little bit for us?

Like what is it you think about
podcasting that does a good job

of making research accessible?

Jeff Goodes: The real benefit
of podcasting is kind of

tied to its limitation.

Because if you have a study, there's
no way you can really accurately convey

the content of a study in a podcast.

You can't spew a huge
pile of numbers of people.

It just doesn't stick, right?

You can do like maybe one number,
you're talking to academics, maybe two.

But after that, people just kind of get
lost in the numbers and nothing sticks.

So what you can do though, is you
can interpret, you can critique, you

can apply what's in the study and
you can, you know, apply it to the

real world and you can analyze it.

So you can add that sort of deeper
layer of conversation that you don't

get in just presenting the study.

So the study becomes the basis for a
conversation that brings in all sorts

of different things from different
areas as academics or as professionals.

And then, you know, I always say, make
sure you have vigorous show notes so that

if you're talking about a study, make sure
you've got the link to the study and the

link to this theory, the link to that.

You can back up everything that you're
saying in the podcast with facts.

But it's that way of going deeper
and you know, really having that

three dimensional conversation.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

So, and then your time in producing
radio stories and radio shows, what did

you bring from that into podcasting?

'Cause I think there's
a real crossover there.

All, all that you learned and applied
from creating stories in radio

must be applicable to podcasting.

There's a lot of rigor I think on the
radio side that's quite applicable and

I think, like for me, I come from a
digital marketing background, so I didn't

bring all that skillset and knowledge to
the table coming to podcasting, but you

are coming at it from producing radio.

Sort of curious what you've brought
into the world of podcasting.

Jeff Goodes: I think, you know, the most
important, and I kind of alluded to this

earlier, is the idea of the importance
of human connection in order to make

sure that you are reaching your audience.

In order to make sure you
have an effective product

that's going to engage people.

I hosted the weekend morning
show for 10 years in Ontario.

It's called Fresh Air.

You guys have North by
Northwest out in BC.

Neil McPhedran: When were you doing that?

What years were you doing that show?

I was living in Toronto then.

Jeff Goodes: 1998 to 2008.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

I would've been, would've
been listening to you.

There you go.

Jeff Goodes: You would've been lying
in bed going, I can't believe I

forgot to turn the clock radio off.

It's Saturday.

But no, we had a big audience
because people would, you know,

Saturday morning you actually
have time to listen to the radio.

But one thing that we would do
every late August, beginning of

September, is we would talk to people
dropping their kids off at school,

at university for the first time.

And it was such a powerful
emotional event for people, right?

So they would call us up and they
would be driving down the 401 weeping.

Like so happy, the new chapter
of life, but so sad because it's

such a moment of mixed emotions.

So we had this, we had created this
community where people would just

feel free to call us up and share
what's going on in their lives, right?

So there was trust.

And there was a community.

And you know, to be able to create
that through audio is pretty amazing.

So that's important to
understand the power of that.

So even when we went on to things
like White Coat, Black Art and Dr.

Brian Goldman, the host, he would
always say, and I've stolen this

from him, but he would always say,
when we were pitching stories, he

would go, okay, what's the heartbeat?

What's the heartbeat in this story?

Because you would, he said every story
has to have a head and a heartbeat.

So we would make sure it has the
intellectual vigor to be a story

and it's got the meat and it, you
know, applies to people's lives

in order to make it relevant.

But what's gonna bring people in.

Who's, what's the first person story
that, that's gonna make people not

turn off the radio on a Saturday
afternoon when they're sitting in

the parking lot of a supermarket?

So we always made sure that we had that.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that, and
that's something that I always tell

people that radio's so good at,
and you should always bring it to

podcasting, is that community feel.

Because I ended up getting sent on
vacation relief one time, like I was

already up north, but then they had a
little station like five hours up north

that was owned by Astral at the time,
and the town I was living in was 20,000.

So we didn't do this, but the
town I went up to was like 5,000.

And I remember I had to fill in
for the one guy that worked at the

station, gave him vacation relief.

And we did a segment every Sunday
that was like a yard sale and

you would literally had to be
like, Flo has a tractor for sale.

And then people like ate it up.

And I was like, this is the best thing.

Like people don't believe that
I did this, but it's real.

And it was like a hit show.

Jeff Goodes: Oh yeah.

And I bet you would've a chat with
Flo about how her day was going

and, you know, where'd the tractor
come from and what'd you use it for?

And blah, blah, blah.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, and then the
funny thing is, like I said, when

you're up in that town, because they
feel like they know you, similar to

podcasting, but on a smaller scale,
they knew I was new in town, they

knew I was only there for a few weeks.

I didn't say this, but they just knew it.

I got offered, offered sandwiches, like to
go out for dinner, like, you know, it's a

cool thing with small town radio, which is
something I totally pull into podcasting.

But the other thing I'd like to
talk to you about from radio is,

I think, I'd like your thought on
this, but I think broadcasters do it

well and some podcasters do it, is
really the one-to-one communication.

I remember in radio school,
they always tell us like, how

many people are you talking to?

And everybody's like millions
of people on the radio and they

said that could be the case.

But you're actually talking to one person.

And I feel like sometimes a lot of
people in podcasting don't necessarily

direct their show to the one person.

And, and it goes back to that
connection you were talking about.

It's like if I'm driving in my car
and I'm listening to your podcast,

or I'm walking the dog or on the
bus, I want you to be talking to me.

I don't want you to be
talking to everybody.

Jeff Goodes: That's,
that's a very good point.

And I always make sure that if
somebody is recording something,

they're talking to someone and not
just like in radio, they say, imagine

a 35 year old woman, blah, blah.

No.

It's like, no, you need somebody
like three feet away from you that

you're talking to because it's very,
it's so hard to go into a booth

and just extemporaneously talk.

And you can't expect people to
have the craft to be able to do

that 'cause it takes a long time.

So you gotta sit down with them
and just encourage and, and show

them how to have a conversation.

Especially when you're dealing with
people who, who are just starting out.

That's super, super important.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, it takes a long time.

I'm like, it took me 20 years to get
here because if you listen to my first

few radio breaks, oh they were rough.

Jeff Goodes: Yeah.

Mine, I was terrible as well.

Neil McPhedran: So the big hairy
thing in the room right now is video.

Every time you turn around in podcasting,
it's video, video, video, video, video.

And Spotify's saying you have to be on
video, and you know, so on and so forth.

I've had like four video
conversations today.

What do you think about that, Jeff?

What's your thoughts there?

How does video change things or does it?

Jeff Goodes: Video does change things.

I think video is important and I
think that, you know, we, in many

instances it certainly helps.

I think it's very important to
use video, especially when you're

doing social, to get your message
out on TikTok and whatever, like

that's, that's super important.

I think that it really helps with YouTube
and that YouTube has become perhaps the

primary place where people find podcasts.

Like a lot of videos is
actually quite substantial.

So yeah, video is good.

At the same time, I'm torn, right?

Because you have to make a decision
what you want the podcast to do, right?

If you want the podcast to reach a small
audience of professionals who happen

to be in the same business, and it's
almost like a community of practice,

or it's like, you know, sharing skills
or whatever, you don't need video.

I don't think you'd be in video for that.

If you're looking for a larger audience,
then I think video becomes more important.

It's a challenge for me to recommend
video because it can really change

the performance and especially if
you're not used to doing podcasting

and you're just learning, right?

And podcasting is a craft and a skill and,
you know, it's much easier I think to sit

down in front of a mic and to hone your
craft that way, and then, you know, ramp

up to video, maybe on the second season.

It can really affect the performance
for some people, because having two

cameras and lights in a room, it
takes away your attention from the

other person, from the matter at
hand, and it can affect the content.

So one thing I might recommend is that
you can do a audio podcast, but create

separate video clips for, for social, you
know, like maybe that's the way to start.

And then next we kind of ramp up to
or scaffold up to, to a video podcast.

Jennifer-Lee: I agree with you, Jeff.

It's important for search and there's
other ways to get around it, like

putting placards up and stuff like that.

I know, and I've seen it, huge podcasts
with big followings that have just

done a placard up for a long time
until they even switch to video.

I think get good with audio
and telling your story first.

If you're able to do it sideways, upside
down, and make people engaged by your

audio, you'll be good then to go to video.

Jeff Goodes: And to not get
too much into the weeds.

But one great thing about audio is
that you can edit the hell out of it.

Like you can really get rid of the
ums and the ahs and the pauses.

I was working with a video
producer on a podcast last year.

And she said, oh, just edit what
you usually do and then send it

to me and I'll just match it up.

And I sent it to her and she was like,
oh my God, I had no idea that this

is how you edited an audio podcast.

'Cause there's like, you know, there's
like a hundred edits or whatever, right?

You just edit out little bits
here and then, you know, and

in video you can't do that.

You have to,

Neil McPhedran: All the jump cuts.

Yeah.

Jeff Goodes: You can't have
all the jump cuts, so you have

to be much more judicious.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's why I like
podcasting, because there's no excuse.

There's no excuse to have a good
sounding podcast because there's

always tools and you can edit.

But I do love that I had radio
background first, because you learn

a lot about how to be more concise.

You learn about a structure, you
learn what happens when you fail live.

Which, you know, every radio broadcaster
has done a billion times when you sucked

it a bit, and I think it really prepares
you then for podcasting and then you're

like, it's such a luxury to be edited
afterwards you're like, oh, no pressure.

Neil McPhedran: I couldn't
imagine going live.

I'm just getting my podcast legs out from
underneath me and being able to be edited.

So, well, Jeff, thank you so
much for joining us today.

It's been a great conversation,
some really good insights.

I, I like hearing people's journeys,
how they got into this corner of

podcasting, not just how you got into
podcasting, but this higher education

academic corner of podcasting.

It was great you were able to share with
us today and some good insights too.

So thank you so much.

Jeff Goodes: Thank you.

I really enjoyed it.

Neil McPhedran: What a great
conversation we just had with Jeff.

I really enjoyed that.

Jennifer-Lee: You always find the
great people to talk to at conferences.

Jeff is another one and
learned a lot from him.

And again, just like anytime, even if
it's not from a direct post-secondary

institution, we always learn so much.

Yes, he has ties or schools and
stuff like that, but even his

work on White Coat, Black Art.

It's like making learning very
accessible to many people and really at

the end of the day, that's what we're
trying to do with higher ed podcasts.

Neil McPhedran: Exactly.

It was also really good to get his
take on and just insights into the

role of podcasting in academia.

Interesting, I mean, he, he's had
academia through his career, but he's

not coming from a core academic career.

Just interesting how he has come
to this conclusion that we, you

know, that we have, and everyone
else listening here, this important

role of podcasting in academia.

It's just good to hear him talk about
that and making research accessible.

Another great episode, Jen,
why don't you read us out?

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into
the Continuing Studies podcast, the

podcast for higher education podcasters.

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