Continuing Studies: Higher Ed Podcasting

Abigail Harrison Moore: Participatory
research is all about breaking down

barriers and creating research that
has the potential to be transformative.

And through this process, we started
to think about the podcast as a space.

a space of exploration, a space of
discussion, a space where we bring

ourselves into it, and we think
together, and we learn from that.

And through that broadcast, we
enable others, hopefully, to learn

with us through that process.

So, coming back to this idea of
gatekeeping, I think podcasting

offers something really exciting
in terms of participatory research

because, again, it can be a, a key to
a door that opens you onto the world.

And that's scary, and we have
to think a lot about ethics and

trust and consent and editing.

But actually, it does allow you
to get out, to tell the world what

you do in these museum spaces.

So I think gatekeeping is
a really important word..

Neil McPhedran: Welcome

Abigail Harrison Moore: to Continuing
Studies, a podcast for higher

education podcasters who want to
learn, connect, and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Higher
ed pods.com and Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer-Lee: I'm Jennifer
Lee, founder of JPod Creations.

If you're podcasting in
higher ed, you're not alone.

There's a fast growing
community out there, and we're

here to help you tap into it.

Neil McPhedran: We are, Jen.

Speaking of community, we've talked
about this on the last couple of

episodes, but where's Jen and Neil?

We are going to be coming to you- in June
I'm at EPOD, which is very appropriate

for this episode we're about to get into.

That's in Leeds, and that's in late June.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, you're speaking.

Neil McPhedran: I'm actually going
to be presenting my abstract.

And then in July we're
together at Higher Ed-

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah

…
Neil McPhedran: PodCon in Cleveland, and
we are recording there, so reach out.

We'll

Jennifer-Lee: hopefully do a live as well,

Neil McPhedran: There's a podcast
studio there, and we'd love to

get into the studio with you
and turn it into an episode.

So give us a shout, reach out to us.

Contact information is in the show notes.

Okay.

So Jen, in this episode, we are
chatting with Abigail Harrison

Moore, who is a professor from the
University of Leeds School of Fine Art,

History of Art, and Cultural Studies.

And she is also part of what's called
the Preservation Party, which is a group

of young curators at Leeds City Museum,
and that's all about empowering young

people to break down traditional barriers
and influence the way museum exhibitions

and events are curated and presented.

I mean, I learn so much from all
of these, but I actually learned

about this whole new thing called
participatory research, which we're

about to get into, and Abigail's
gonna explain it a little bit for us.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

I even learned things on our
pre-chat, which wasn't recorded.

Like, I learned that,
wild rice isn't rice.

So,

Neil McPhedran: There you go

…
Jennifer-Lee: Abigail is teaching us many
different things, so let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Abigail, it's so
great to have you here on another

episode of Continuing Studies.

Abigail Harrison Moore: Thank
you very much for having me.

I'm really delighted to be
speaking to you both today.

Neil McPhedran: Wonderful.

So, Let's start with Whose Power, which
is the name of the podcast project.

And what is the project and
how did it come together?

Abigail Harrison Moore: Okay.

So I'm a storyteller, so forgive me if
I'm going to tell you a little story

So let's try and do this quickly.

Whose Power is a project that I
co-developed with the Preservative

Party, who are a group of
14 to 24-year-olds in Leeds.

So they work together
with Leeds City Museum.

So Leeds is a small city
in the north of England.

We have a council-run museum service,
which is quite unusual still in the UK.

So that means taxpayers pay for it.

And obviously, as a result, it
has an absolute duty and also an

amazing history of reaching out to
its communities within the city.

So the Preservative Party have worked
in one form or another with Leeds City

Museum for the last 12 years, which is
very unusual because most youth projects

in museums tend to be start and finish.

You get some money, you develop
a group, and then they go away.

Whereas Leeds City Museum committed
to this group, and every week they

meet from 5:00 to 7:00 at the museum.

So I came across them because I've worked
with the museum service for the last

30 years since I started my academic
career working on a placement at one of

the other museums called Lotherton Hall.

But I'd never worked with
the Preservative Party.

And having spent 30 years at the
University of Leeds thinking very much

about museum studies, I'm a professor
of art history museum studies now.

I started off as just a person coming
into museums, and now here I am

as a professor of museum studies.

But also thinking a lot about the
fact that it's still, well, it's

even more difficult for young
people from a state school, so a

publicly funded school background
in the UK, to access university.

I'm a Yorkshire girl from by
background, I went to a state school.

Universities were unusual
spaces for me when I went there.

And then when I arrived as an academic
at Leeds University, I realized I was

quite unusual in that environment.

So, for a very long time I've
been working to engage young

people in higher education.

So, the Preservative Party offered me
an opportunity to bring that side of

my life together with the other side
of my life, which is as a researcher.

I think about the late 19th century.

I think about the arts and crafts
movement, and have been thinking

a lot with a group of academics
across the world about women

making energy change in the 1880s.

So up until about 2021 when we
published the book, I was an

old-fashioned researcher in many ways.

I went to archives, I
read text, I wrote books.

I tried to find new ways of thinking
about the past, but I'd never connected

that to my work with young people.

And so Whose Power has been a
project that has allowed me to

bring those two things together.

Interest in histories of energy,
who's talked about in the histories of

energy, who's not And my real interest
in engaging young people to help them

believe in themselves as researchers
and as thinkers and as voices.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that
you're kinda taking away the

gatekeeping aspect as well.

Like when I was listening to it, a lot
of the youngest speakers were saying

like, "You know, I went into the museums
and there are a lot of older people,

and it's a cold environment." And
then they were like, "Well, it was

kind of a misconception because that's
what it wasn't." So you're kinda like

peeling back and including everybody.

Abigail Harrison Moore: I
think gatekeeping's a, it's

a really interesting word.

And thank you for
listening to our podcast.

Podcasting for us was an experiment.

It was something that very much
came from the young people.

So when I joined the group, it was a
really slow process of them getting to

know me, and that was really important.

You know, I represented
this very strange thing.

So for them to open the gate
to me was really important.

Uh, I'm a professor.

What does that mean to a group of kids
who formal education in the UK failed

them for multiple different reasons?

They have failed to
complete their education.

It might be 'cause they were
homeless, it might be because of

their history, their neurodiversity,
but the system had let them down.

And then I, in many ways,
represented the system.

So, the first part of the process
was them opening the gates to me and

allowing me to get to know them and get
to know the work that they're doing.

They would talk about themselves, and
they do on the podcast, as activists.

You know, one of the fantastic things
that Leeds Museums have done with this

group is enabled them to really see
themselves as people who have a very

important voice and can make change.

So just when I arrived to work with
the group, they'd done this incredible

exhibition called Overlooked, which
they talk about on the podcast.

And Overlooked was about them looking
at the collections in Leeds, so these

millions of objects that we have that
represent our history from the 19th

century through to the present day,
and going, "Where am I within these

objects?" and so this exhibition,
uh, allowed them to talk about

neurodiversity, trans identity, gender,
race, age, class within the museum.

That was a really daring but really
exciting thing for a museum to do

and for this group to do, to put
themselves forward and out there.

So through getting to know them, we
talked a lot about what I do as an

academic and writing, and we kind of
talked about all the problems I have

with that notion of the individual
researcher sitting in a space and

then telling the world what I think.

And so, through those conversations,
we started talking about podcasting.

And to be honest, I knew
nothing about podcasting.

You know, as I said to them at the
time, "Is it like listening to radio?"

And I like listening to different
voices telling me different things

that I didn't expect to know about.

And so, we talked about podcasting,
and they said to me, "Voice is

all we have often." You know, the
economics of society, education

systems have silenced them in many
ways, and their voice is important.

And so, the podcast It's something
that they saw already that if

given the right support, they
could learn to do themselves.

You know, one of the beauties of
podcasting is you can do it with a phone,

with a computer in your bedroom and
you can tell the world what you think.

And so we started having a long
conversation and I was very lucky

that my funders allowed me because I'd
said to them, "This is participatory

research. I don't know what we're gonna
produce." So, when they said, "I want

to do this," I went back to my funders
and went, "This is what they want to

do. Is that okay?" and they said yes.

So we brought in an organization called
Research Podcasts, Krissie and Chris.

They really got to know the
group 'cause it's a really

important part of our process.

They then ran a, a brilliant
training session with the group

where they really came to them.

They've talked about the fact that we've
changed what they understand a podcast

to be and what they understand is the
potential of what happens in the podcast

studio because often they've been employed
brilliantly by researchers to kind of

create a podcast that's like a book.

But through this process we started
to think about the podcast as a space.

So coming back to this idea of
gatekeeping, I think podcasting

offers something really exciting
in terms of participatory research

because again, it can be a, a key to
a door that opens you onto the world.

And that's scary and we have to think a
lot about ethics and trust and consent

and editing, but actually it does
allow you to get out to tell the world

what you do in these museum spaces.

So I think gatekeeping's
a really important word

Neil McPhedran: I think that's a
really interesting lens to put on it.

We had a chat before we had our
interview here and you really opened

my eyes and I've kind of dug into
this participatory research more.

But I think it's really interesting
how you describe the podcast studio

as more than a recording place.

It's a participatory space.

So what do you think changes
once people get in there?

Like once the students get in there,
once you get in there too because

you're saying this is newer to you too.

Abigail Harrison Moore: Yeah.

No, and I think we had to do
a lot of work together which

is how we approach everything.

Participatory research is all
about breaking down barriers and

creating research that has the
potential to be transformative.

And this, the Preservative Party
as a group of young people have the

potential to be transformative if
only we can enable the world to know.

And so, I think one of the most
important things was the work that we

did before we went into the studio.

So we're very lucky at Leeds.

We created a, a few years back a digital
education space called Helix and when I

started talking to the group about the
podcast that was at the very earliest

phases of us trying to understand as a
university what this digital education

space could be, what its potential was.

And I was very lucky that they
were very open to a conversation.

They hadn't decided.

So they'd created podcast studios
but they hadn't really thought

beyond students at the university and
academics at the university using those.

But as a university we're a big
university, huge university, 40,000

students in a very small city.

And therefore We're really alert to
what some people call our civic role.

And so, what we wanted to experiment
was what happens when we open those

spaces, and again come back to
this idea of gatekeeping, open them

to communities within the city.

And interestingly, through this
process, a large number of the group

have decided to go into further and
higher education, which is really

exciting given their background.

And we're just trying to think
it together at the moment

about what made the difference.

And I think it's about meeting a
professor, you know, demystifying that.

And I think it was being a
studio on a university campus.

So, the team there made it very safe.

We worked on a Saturday, so we
could have the space to ourselves,

which was really important.

We recorded the episodes back to
back, and one of the things that we

talked about with Research Podcasts
beforehand was their method, and I

completely understood that, in the
past had been you write a script.

You know, you really decide before
you go into the podcast studio, 'cause

research is like this, Whereas I
said, and the group said, "We don't

know what we're gonna talk about.

We have no idea until the space." So
my job across the first series was to

try and weave together the key themes
that were coming out as we recorded,

because those key questions, those key
research insights that participatory

research generates, and you have
to sort of catch them in some way.

And this is one of the problems for
participatory research is, you know, you

can have photography, you can have film,
but you don't want to stop the process.

You don't want to go, "Wait, wait,
everybody, I've got this amazing insight,"

or, "You've got this amazing s- insight.

Let's write this down.

Let's record this."

So the beauty of podcasts and how we've
discovered it, having created a safe

space to go in, an ethical space to go
in, and a, a space where we said to them,

"You will get to edit this. You will
have the final say so about what gets

translated." And we did a lot of work,
a lot of careful work post-production

to help them feel safe that they knew
what they were gonna tell the world.

But through that process, those
really important research insights

as to what made the difference,
both about the research process

but also about podcasting,
revealed in this very fluid way.

So for example, we thought
about pauses, accents.

I live in the north of England.

My ex-husband can tell you from an
accent which town someone comes from.

And, you know, class is something
that's really challenging in academia,

in higher education, and yet something
that you don't see it, you hear.

You hear class difference.

You hear accents.

And that's what you hear in the podcast.

It also allowed us to capture
the nuances of their voices.

So the idea that for one young person,
they'd speak quite quickly and their

ideas would come quickly, and for
others, it was a much slower process,

but that really thoughtful process.

And again, pauses, ums, you know, the
sounds, that's what the podcast studio

has brought to participatory research
to allow us to have a much more rounded

understanding of who's in the space
and, and how the research is operating.

So that's where the podcast studio became
a participatory space in a way that none

of us predicted, which is why we did the
second series where we more consciously

reflected on what was it about podcasting.

Jennifer-Lee: I, I love what you said
about accents, 'cause it's something

that I didn't think about because I, I
obviously, I, I understand little bits

of differences of English accents, but
to me that wouldn't have been a thing.

But now you're opening it up
to, like, a larger field where

people can just be themselves-

Abigail Harrison Moore: Yeah

Jennifer-Lee: And not have to worry
about how they're gonna be perceived.

Abigail Harrison Moore: In
participatory research, you've got

to be really aware of yourself.

I think sometimes there's a perception
that, you know, we, we go, we eat crisps,

we make zines, we, we design exhibitions.

It's fabulous, it's fun, and we
laugh, and we have fun, and we

have parties, and we celebrate.

But it's really hard work.

It's, it's really hard work.

It's the hardest academic
work I've ever done.

It's the most rewarding
academic work I've ever done.

But when you go into a classroom
with students, you've gotta

bring yourself to it, and that's
exhausting, but it's also brilliant.

And my daughter, who's the same age
as a lot of the Pres Party, said to

me after I started working with them,
"Your spark's come back on, Mum."

Because I've been a, a senior leader
at the university, and while that

was great, when you step down from a
senior leadership role and you think,

"Well, what next?" And I could not
have anticipated the impact of… And

actually, after the first recording, so
we'd recorded over Saturday and Sunday

back to back, and it was exhausting, But
I sat in the car afterwards and I sobbed.

And I was like, "What, what
am I doing? Why am I sobbing?"

I'm not a natural crier.

And it was because we'd all
brought so much into that

space, and I needed a release.

Yeah.

Neil McPhedran: Wow.

Abigail Harrison Moore: So I think
there's something, again, about the

emotional intensity of a microphone, and
a person, and a conversation that podcast

captures in a way that no other research
output, or text, or ED can capture.

Jennifer-Lee: And there's
really no barrier to entry.

Like, again, you don't have to worry
about how you look on the microphone.

You just can get a microphone
and start chatting.

And that being said, though,
are, are you guys leaning

towards eventually doing video?

Or are you gonna-

Abigail Harrison Moore: No

…
Jennifer-Lee: Keep it completely audio?

Abigail Harrison Moore: No.

Jennifer-Lee: And why?

Abigail Harrison Moore: I mean,
this is something that we've

thought very carefully about.

So we have done film, and we
have a documentary, because

again, that's another process.

But the reason I say no emphatically
is I think that I have a problem

with podcasting becoming a video
medium as well, and you're seeing

that a lot in, in professional
and public and popular podcasting.

I think there's something
really special- About the voice.

And I think it's what-

Neil McPhedran: Yeah

…
Abigail Harrison Moore: broadcasters
in the late 19th century, the early

20th century, as we started to discover
the medium of radio, really understood

because we listen differently.

You know, one of the things I think
we're all aware of when we're doing

Teams calls or Zoom calls, I mean, I
don't know about you, but I check my

hair quite a lot, you know, thinking,
"Did my earrings match?" et cetera.

Whereas when you're just speaking and
listening, there's an intensity to that

process that really allows you to hear.

And what I guess we all wanted
from the podcast was for our

audiences to really hear.

'Cause what these young people have
to say is so important, and to give

these young people the respect that
they deserve to be listened to.

And I think, yeah, video wouldn't
work for us, and I don't think

video works for a lot of podcasting.

I think we shouldn't mix up the medium.

Sorry, probably a bad thing to say.

Neil: I agree Jenn totally agrees.

Jennifer-Lee: Neil has to listen to
this all the time, because I don't

think you should be forced into video.

I think, yes, some podcasts can
be video, and some things work for

some people, and some things don't.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I really
appreciate audio only, but especially

with what you're doing and for
participatory research and how video

just would've… It just takes it
in a completely different direction

and complicates it and, and whatnot.

So, if someone in higher education
wants to start trying this, as in

using podcasting for participatory
research, what are some of the

non-negotiables that you would sort
of suggest before you hit record?

Abigail Harrison Moore: Okay.

I think, so one of the things that
we do in the second series, and this

was very much their decision, because
what's interesting in the second

series is they built the confidence,
so they become the presenters.

In the first series they
wanted me to present.

In fact, they did one episode
where they interviewed me.

But in the second series they said
categorically, "Nah, you're not doing

that. We're going to lead on that." But
they wanted me at the end of each episode

to kind of draw together my research
findings to try and translate that.

Neil McPhedran: Right.

Abigail Harrison Moore: Because they
were really alert to the fact they

wanted academics to get a lot out of it.

I think one of the things they want
everybody to know, and one of the things

I want everybody to know, is that you
cannot come at this easily or lightly.

It's not easy, and it takes a lot of
work and a lot of pre-preparation.

So I, I think I came into this quite
naively when I started the project,

and now on reflection, I think
what we were doing at the beginning

was first-person action research,
second-person action research.

Because, because of the nature of
funding, I'd come into the room

having set the parameters already.

I'd set the research questions because I'd
had to say to the research council, "This

is what we're going to do." And while I, I
was careful with the support of brilliant

colleagues at work who helped me write
the application to say, "I don't quite

know what we're gonna do," but of course,
to get the money, I had to be persuasive.

I had to convince the peer reviewers
that there was a structure.

The second series, I would say,
was far more participatory because

that was the group co-designing
absolutely from the beginning.

What are we gonna do?

Why are we gonna do it?

What are the research
questions we're going to ask?

And what enabled us to do that
was that very long, slow process

of learning about each other.

We could not have gone into that
studio without the trust that

they had in me and I had in them,
and we had in Research Podcasts.

You know, Krissie and Chris
had really come to them.

Krissie's got a background as a

teacher.

They'd really

Abigail Harrison Moore: come to the
group and learned with the group.

Same with Andy, our photographer,
Sally, our filmmaker.

All of these people, I said to them,
"Yes, I'd like to employ you on this

project, but the group gets final say.

And sometimes it works
and sometimes it doesn't.

My biggest advice to somebody
thinking this sounds great, and

that's brilliant, brilliant.

The whole point of going out into the
world is to say to other people, "This

is how research should happen. This is
how research in museums should happen."

And for me as an historian, I'm
consistently interested in why does

it matter that we know about the past?

History matters 'cause history helps us.

Thinking about who's been overlooked in
history and why they've been overlooked,

and those power structures helps us really
have a conversation about who matters

now and who should matter in the future.

But in order to do that, and in order
to do this participatory practice,

which I thoroughly encourage people
to think about, one, you have to be

the sort of person who wants to do it.

You know, we all know as academics,
you have to be really self-aware.

You have to work out
what your strengths are.

And I am not good at being locked
in a room and told to write a book.

In a classroom, when I can say
to students, "What do you think?

Did, did that make sense?" That's
a natural situation for me.

Whereas being one of those people that
sits down and writes a book and goes,

"The world must know this", that's not me.

But likewise, there are brilliant
academics out there who probably

should never, ever- Consider
participatory practice because it

takes a skill set and it takes-

Neil McPhedran: Right

Abigail Harrison Moore: A wish
to want to learn together,

but also to do the hard work.

You know, it's great fun-

Neil McPhedran: Yeah

…
Abigail Harrison Moore: But it's
also really hard work for all of us.

You know, I am so grateful to the
Preservative Party because they bring

themselves fully to this, and they
live lives, and then they come into

the space and they give it energy.

So, I think my advice is
there's processes, and we've

got to get those right.

Yeah, ethics, consent.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, it seems like it's
just sort of like a free-for-all, but

you- that's the completely opposite.

Like, you're not just sort of like all
piling into a room and let's turn on the-

Abigail Harrison Moore: Oh, God, no

…
Neil McPhedran: Let's turn on the
system and the mics and here we go.

Abigail Harrison Moore: No.

Not at all.

If you think that, just don't
do it because that's dangerous.

Neil McPhedran: Right.

Yeah.

Abigail Harrison Moore: And
it's, it's unfair, and it's

extractivist, and it's wrong.

I get very cross when I see projects
where I feel that they were on behalf

of the academic, you know, and they were
not about who the people were that you're

working with, and it will fail to do it.

It takes a lot of hard work on behalf of
everybody to create the safe space and

the trust that enables you then to do a
really exciting participatory podcast.

And, you know, really good research-
really hard work, but when you

put the labor in, you have the
potential to change the world.

And coming back to what Freire
said about participatory action

research, it's transformative.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

That's great.

Jennifer-Lee: You just said so much in
there, and I'm really enjoying our time.

So for higher ed podcasters listening,
what are they missing if they only

use podcasts to communicate research
instead of doing research this way?

Abigail Harrison Moore: Research
is … The worst thing we can do is

present research as a smooth, perfectly
formed process because if we do

that, we make it really unaccessible.

You know, our job as academics
is to make our research and our

education as accessible as possible.

That's what we're paid to do.

That's why people give us research grants.

That's why we get salaries.

And therefore, we should be in
an environment where we want to

understand the impact of what
we're doing and learn from it.

If you're a good researcher- … I
think, I hope, you think of research

as a constant process of learning.

The beauty of participatory practice is
that you're learning together, and you're

active and you're acknowledging that
learning process all the way through.

If what we're using it for is just
simply to regurgitate our research,

then as someone very close to me said
recently, who'd come to an academic

conference, and they're not an academic,
and they said, "Why do people just stand

up and read their papers? I can read
their books. I can read their papers."

Now, we had an argument about it in
the nicest way possible, and I talked

about nuance of voice and needing to
see the whole person, all of that.

But, they did have a
really important point.

If we only see podcasting as a space
where we repeat what we've said in a

book or research paper, that's one thing.

And it, yeah, it's a way of
telling the world what we're

doing, and it's accessible.

Fabulous.

You know, books are expensive.

But let's not pretend that's
much different to an audiobook

or to reading the book yourself.

Whereas, and this is what I remember
Krissie and Chris saying to us right at

the beginning, a podcast is different.

A podcast is a space of exploration,
a space of discussion, a space where

we bring ourselves into it, and we
think together, and we learn from that.

And through that broadcast, we
enable others, hopefully, to learn

with us through that process.

So I don't know if that answers
your question, but for me-

Neil McPhedran: That's great

Abigail Harrison Moore:
That feels what my-

Neil McPhedran: That's really good

…
Abigail Harrison Moore:
Experience has been.

Neil McPhedran: I love it.

I think this is a really good jumping
off spot because we are actually going

to have an interview with Krissie,
where she's going to talk about Research

Podcasts and a bit more about how they
teach researchers as well as students and

other academics about using podcasting.

And then when I'm in Leeds for EPOD, I'm
gonna join you, Abigail, and Krissie-

Jennifer-Lee: Jealous.

Abigail Harrison Moore: We're excited

… Neil McPhedran: In the studio we're
talking about so we can dig, we can

really kind of explore that environment
a little bit more, so this is-

Jennifer-Lee: Neil's
going rogue without me.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah, poor Jenn.

Abigail Harrison Moore: We're
gonna show you the Leeds way

Neil McPhedran: it's gonna be like So,
so I think this is a great jumping off

place, and thank you so much for joining
us today on this episode, Abigail, and

I'm looking forward to meeting you in
person and getting into that studio

you were talking about as well too.

It's great.

Thank you so much.

Abigail Harrison Moore:
No, thank you ever so much.

Thank you for inviting me to participate.

Jennifer-Lee: Thanks.

Neil McPhedran: Well, Jenn,
loved that conversation.

Really got a lot out of it.

Jennifer-Lee: My key takeaway was
they don't ever want to do video, and

they have a really good reason for it.

And, you know, I do think there
is a place for video in podcasts.

I think some podcasts thrive in video,
but for this particular podcast, she

says that this medium is for audio,
and she really wants you to think and

listen to it, and she doesn't want
you to see this particular podcast.

So I thought that was interesting.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So damn you, Spotify, for having
your algorithm push video.

Jennifer-Lee: Damn you.

Sorry.

And that entire podcast is
never gonna rank on Spotify.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Well, if anyone got to the end of this
episode and they heard me say that-

Jennifer-Lee: There we go

…
Neil McPhedran: That's my biases.

I'm sorry.

A little thing I just want to mention
to the audience here, behind the scenes,

no one knows what's going on, but we've
been trying this new technique in our

interview process where we run for about
20 minutes for the first part of the

conversation, and then we have a break
in our conversation and our interview.

Kylé our producer, pops back up on the
screen, and we talk about, did we miss

anything in what we just talked about?

So we were able to kind of review
that with Abigail, and then we talked

about the rest of the interview and
what we wanna cover or whatever.

And I gotta say, Jenn, I
really like this new process.

So many previous interviews that
we've had, I've come to the end, I've

been, "Oh, I forgot that," or, "Oh, I
wish I'd done that." And this little

break where you kind of, like, take
a time out from the interview and the

conversation, and you think about what
did we just talk about and what do we

wanna talk about moving forward is, like,
just… It's been mind-blowing for me.

I've really enjoyed the process.

So there you go.

Not about this interview per se, but
sort of some behind-the-scenes stuff

that we've learned that I'm quite
thinking is, uh, working quite well.

Jennifer-Lee: But the thing that I
liked, it actually naturally flowed into

the rest of the conversation when we

Neil McPhedran: Yeah

Jennifer-Lee: Stopped it.

So we stopped around the mark about
talking about video, and then it naturally

led into a better and deeper conversation.

So I thought it was really cool.

Neil McPhedran: Jenn, why
don't you read us out?

Jennifer-Lee: Sounds good.

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