Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

[00:00:00] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters. In each episode, we talk to a university podcaster to ask some questions, get answers, and share tips and ideas about higher education podcasting. Hi, I'm Jennifer-Lee Gunson, I'm a radio broadcaster and a podcaster.
[00:00:23] Neil McPhedran: Hi, and I'm your other host, Neil McPhedran. I've actually come to podcasting from a whole different avenue. I've spent the last 20 years in digital agency world developing and marketing digital content. But together, we've hosted, executive produced, and or launched six, and counting, higher education podcasts. So if you're a university podcaster looking to build your network and community, then please follow and subscribe to the Continuous Studies podcast, the podcast for higher education podcasters.
[00:00:53] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Please also join the University Podcasters Network Group on LinkedIn where you can connect with other podcasters in the [00:01:00] higher education space. And learn from others in the field.
[00:01:03] Today we're talking with Jenny Luna from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she produces multiple podcasts, including 'Think Fast, Talk Smart', the number one careers podcast on both Apple and Spotify in the US, Canada, China, and India.
[00:01:19] We started our conversation by asking Jenny about her journey into university podcasting.
[00:01:31] Neil McPhedran: Well, welcome Jenny. Thanks for joining us here today for our podcast. Maybe we could just start a little bit about your background, and your name and your background.
[00:01:42] Jenny Luna: Yeah, definitely, thanks for having me. I come from a background in journalism and specifically, public radio. So I went to journalism school and then I worked for a few radio stations, worked for a magazine, and then got a job working on a food politics podcast in San Francisco, and that was a lot of fun.
[00:01:59] And then I transitioned into higher ed, so I went from San Francisco down to Palo Alto to work at Stanford's Business School where there wasn't any podcast. And so I had really wanted to take my love for podcasting and for audio into the higher ed space. You know, we had website articles, we were doing videos, but I really felt like something was missing when I came to the business school at Stanford, and that was audio. So, when I first started, what we did is we experimented with different kinds of audio and how those could be podcasting [00:02:30] techniques, but I've really evolved it in the last five years and I'm excited to kind of share more about the journey that we've been on as a school when it comes to podcasting.
[00:02:40] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Because my background is also in radio, and I used to be a radio DJ for many years, and actually still do the traffic from a helicopter once in a while, did you work on the radio or like behind the scenes?
[00:02:51] Jenny Luna: That sounds so fun. I would go out in the field and tell stories, and then they would be put on the...
[00:02:56] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: ooh
[00:02:56] Jenny Luna: ...radio show. So like a radio reporter or stringer. I worked out in Miami, which was a ton of fun, and same for the food politics podcast, Bite. I was going out interviewing people and then stitching together radio stories for the podcast.
[00:03:10] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: That's awesome. I love people that have radio backgrounds that are involved in podcasting because oddly enough, I don't run into too many, which I feel like it's a natural fit.
[00:03:20] Jenny Luna: Yeah, it's rare. I think a lot of the, you know, founding fathers of podcasting, if you will, you know, some of the storytelling podcasts, a lot of them come from journalism for that [00:03:30] storytelling background. And I think that's why you have so many different approaches to podcasts, you have some who maybe are great storytellers, or some are just good interviewers, some who are just great conversationalists, and all of those styles can work in audio.
[00:03:44] Neil McPhedran: Is podcasting now your full-time focus at the GSB?
[00:03:48] Jenny Luna: So right now the podcasting is only, I'd say maybe 40% of my job.
[00:03:53] I'm also, you know, my title is Multimedia Content Creator. So I work really closely with our video producer to help with videos on the web. I work really closely with our social media team to help create social posts. Our team is made up of content creators, some people focus more on writing, some on video, and then me on podcasting, but we all work really closely together to kind of share multimedia storytelling packages that come from our alumni magazine or just come from storytelling from campus. And then the bulk of that, is we talk about the research that's going on, on campus.
[00:04:26] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: How did podcasting like grow into your role? Was it already set in there or was it something that you brought to the table?
[00:04:32] Jenny Luna: Definitely the latter, Jen. I feel like I had to come into this space and really advocate for it. I think I always liken it to people who probably said, "You know what, your business needs to have a social media account". And people were like, "What?!" Or back even further, when people said, "You know, your business used to have a website." People were like, "We don't need a website." Well, I feel like I came in and I was like, we need a podcast. I did spend a little time kind of advocating and fighting for that podcast and a trick [00:05:00] that a friend of mine I worked with used, was the word 'pilot'. So that was our first kind of foray into audio, once I could prove that we could do it, then I was ready to really make our first actual original content podcast.
[00:05:12] That was 'Think Fast, Talk Smart', and the story behind that was, we have this lecturer, Matt Abrahams, who had a video on YouTube. He was giving a talk at an alumni reunion. He didn't know it was being recorded, somehow it made it onto our YouTube [00:05:30] channel, and one of those freak algorithm things, it just went crazy. We really wanted to see if we're going to make a podcast, let's work with content we know already does well.
[00:05:39] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: And that's the hardest part, is figuring out where to start because like, you want to propose to the university that you're going to do a podcast. But I know a lot of times when I sit down with people, it's like, well, what are we going to talk about, and what is going to be the most efficient use of our time and what is going to represent our brand properly. So, It's great that you already had [00:06:00] him in place. Can you just explain to people a little bit about who Matt is?
[00:06:04] Jenny Luna: He's a faculty member, basically lectures at Stanford Graduate School of Business, and then also works on the side as a consultant. So he's not a full tenured professor, he's a lecturer, and I think, well, I know, a big reason that the podcast has been so successful is because of him, and his dedication, and his work toward the podcast. If this were something that I was making completely on my own as a content creator for the university, I would've had to do [00:06:30] much more work. But Matt does everything from scheduling his own meetings, to reaching out to guests, to researching his guests. And I think that takes a lot of that executive producer role off of me, since my full-time job isn't supporting this one podcast, I'm able to work with him in a really great partnership.
[00:06:47] Neil McPhedran: How many other podcasts is the GSB managing right now? It sounds like there's, so, Matt's, Think Fast, Talk Smart was the first one, and then now there's a few more. Just maybe, like how many podcasts are you involved with actually, then.
[00:07:01] Jenny Luna: That seems to change here and there a little bit. We have three that we always produce, that are our shows. And then, what we've found is more and more professors are wanting to start their own podcast. I think it's really similar to writing a book and building your brand; people maybe want to launch a book, so they want to have a podcast under their belt, they're hearing of their colleagues making podcasts. So, we have about three professors now who make their own podcasts, and we've supported them in different [00:07:30] ways because, as we found, we can't help every single professor make her podcast from start to finish, it's just too much.
[00:07:37] Neil McPhedran: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:37] Jenny Luna: We don't have the manpower. So we've really acted instead of, as kind of advisors. So for example, last year I've had probably five emails from five different professors saying, "Hi, I hear you make podcasts. Can you make me a podcast?" So, I think one of the things I always advise is taking a step back and asking them, why is the podcast the [00:08:00] right thing for you to make? Could this be you just being on Twitter a little more actively? Could this be you having a newsletter that you send to your followers? Why is a podcast the best way to get to the message that you want to get to? And I will have to say, it's astounding how many people say they want to make a podcast, and when you ask them what podcasts they listen to, they've never listened to a podcast.
[00:08:23] So I think the other huge part of my job, kind of at that very initial space of working with a [00:08:30] professor who specifically wants his or her own podcast, is educating them on the work that's involved. How much work is this going to take from you? We've had some professors get really excited about podcasting, realize how much work it was, and then decide not to make their podcast. And we've had the opposite, they realize how much work it is and they are still super excited about it. So we actually have a creative brief that I immediately share with a professor that says, you know, what's your one-liner? What would the title be? What are some [00:09:00] podcasts that you think it could be like, what are some podcasts you think it's not like, and why? Uh, what is the tone of your podcast?
[00:09:07] And then something that's really important I think for success when a professor is making their own podcast is, what are the first five episodes? What would you title them? Who would you interview? You know, having that really written out on paper, I think that's kind of the first stop. Because some people see the creative brief and decide, this is not for me, and then some people fill out the creative brief in very much detail and they realize, oh, I [00:09:30] have a lot of work cut out, I have a lot of work already done now.
[00:09:32] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: That is so important, what you're doing, because that's when, like, I sit down to people and I consult about, if they're doing a podcast, I want to make sure that they're doing it for the right reasons. Because, especially when you're doing it in business, it's kind of different goals than, like, trying to be a Joe Rogan or a celebrity on a podcast. That's a different type of podcasting. That's a thing that I think a lot of people aren't realizing. Podcast is becoming a very broad term now. I think it's just interesting to see that it's like we've got all these [00:10:00] different segues, it's like YouTube or anything else. It's like we've got the celebrity category, we've got the business category, we've got the hobbyist category, but they're all different and they all cater to something different.
[00:10:11] And you have to be in it for the long haul. That's why I tell everyone too, I said, if you can't be patient with growth, don't do it. Because it might take you six months till somebody's like, oh, hey, I saw your podcast, or listen to it. And I know that, and you probably know this too, from working in the radio, sometimes you feel like nobody's paying attention to you. And yeah, you've got the ratings, [00:10:30] but then all of a sudden, someone will write you outta the blue and be like, oh, I really like that bit. Oh wait, someone is listening to me, someone does care.
[00:10:37] Jenny Luna: I heard the other day that there are a hundred new podcasts every single day, the growth is so true. Audience acquisition is the biggest challenge, I think that's something as content creators, or people behind the scenes like the three of us, with podcasting is we really have to communicate to people is, you're not going to be a sensation overnight. The top 100 podcasts have all been in production for [00:11:00] seven or more years. So, it really takes a long time to grow. And I think that's something, again, it's part of that education piece, when people come to you and say, I think we should be making a podcast.
[00:11:10] Neil McPhedran: Think Fast, Talk Smart is such a, it's such a, successful podcast, and I'm sure other professors, other faculty know that and they're like, okay, well we're just going to step into something similar to what, to you know, to what Matt's created. So that's, that must be part of your dialogue, [00:11:30] part of that education process. I love how you've created that triage document almost to kind of like, square up how big it is, but I guess the other part of that, is really that education part of like expectations. You're not just going to step into pushing this podcast live and suddenly you're going to have an audience the size that uh, Matt has with Think Fast ,Talk Smart.
[00:11:49] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: And curious about that. Did Matt have a following before?
[00:11:52] Jenny Luna: Not so much that it contributed to the audience. I think more so with that, it was Stanford GSB's large following on social media, and so that really helped us. We promoted every single episode when it came out, we did a big push for the first trailer, and then again, the topic is something that most people are searching for.
[00:12:13] I have a hunch that we're really popular with English language learners or English as a second language speaker, speakers, because we find that our audience is growing globally. So I think, you know, it has a lot to do with Stanford kind of being the engine at first behind a lot of that growth.
[00:12:31] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: And can you delve a little bit more into the type of topics Matt covers on the podcast?
[00:12:35] Jenny Luna: Yeah, so what we've done, which is really fun, is we pair Matt up with a professor, and usually a tenure line professor at Stanford, so he will talk to them about their research as it relates to communication.
[00:12:48] So we've done an episode on how to get more of what you want, negotiation. Uh, we've talked about persuasion, we've talked about conflict negotiation at work, conflict [00:13:00] negotiation at home. Uh, during covid we talked about communication when you have a mask on, and how you can really let people feel comfortable or let people know who you are when they can't see half of your face. We've talked a lot about diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, and how to communicate those. We've talked about crisis communication as leaders, how can you communicate when things are uncertain? And we've done a lot on creativity and storytelling, how to [00:13:30] communicate your idea to others so that they get on board more quickly, and it's all research backed. So I think it kind of hits two buckets. People who want to just improve their communication, but then they're learning the neuroscience behind all of this, or they're learning the organizational behavior research, so it really helps to have the research backed techniques to have people really improve their leadership and communication.
[00:13:52] Neil McPhedran: Giving access to those amazing Stanford brains too, so that everyone else who can't get accepted into Stanford could, can learn from a lot of those, that amazing research and those just incredibly smart people.
[00:14:05] Jenny Luna: Yeah, we've definitely leaned on the brand of Stanford very heavily, because people across the world, they think, oh, this is out of Stanford, I want to learn from them. So I think that's been a great spot for us to be able to reach.
[00:14:18] Neil McPhedran: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:19] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I love that because you've made the barrier for entry smaller, because maybe those people, like Neil was saying, can't necessarily go to Stanford, but they can still learn from the credible professionals that you guys have.
[00:14:30] Neil McPhedran: Just going back a little bit in our conversation, when you were talking about the support beyond the podcast itself that your team provides, what have you and your team found valuable to focus your creative and content supporting efforts on, I guess? Like what are those other elements? You talked about the social media, but what else have you ,could you sort of provide some insight for those listening, about what you found that works really well from a supporting perspective?
[00:14:57] Jenny Luna: Yeah, one big thing that we noticed a big, a huge difference with, was we started including transcripts for SEO. I don't, I'm not a web person, but our web team talked a lot about how important it was to have basically, more words on the page, or words repeated on a page. So if we, you know for example, if an episode, we have the full transcript up, you have the word communication, communication techniques, public speaking, confidence, leadership repeated each four or five times. So once we started putting the transcript on, it really [00:15:30] helped. We found a lot of listeners actually like to read the transcript while they listened as well.
[00:15:34] Neil McPhedran: Hmm.
[00:15:35] Jenny Luna: So that was something we worked with our web team to do, and we work heavily with our editorial team because they're very experienced in writing great headlines and writing great copy. Think very strategically about how to title each episode. I think about my behavior as a podcast listener, and I very seldomly go listen to the first episode and then the second episode, and then the third episode.
[00:15:56] When I discover a podcast, I scroll through like a menu, and I decide what do I want to order? Oh, and I usually make that decision two ways. Do I recognize the name of the person, and I like this person's work and I want to hear more from them? Or, is there a promise of a learning or a takeaway that this episode has that I want more of in my life? So we use the how-to model when we title our episodes. So working with the editorial team a lot to make it a, you know, a really engaging episode that's going to spark curiosity for people.
[00:16:29] And then the [00:16:30] third part of that is social media and promotion. So we have not made audiograms as much as maybe I would want to, those little snippets on social media with the quick clip. But we do promote it weekly and then we've gone back and promoted old episodes because they're evergreen, you can promote them at any time. I think we've reached a lot of new listeners by putting it in newsletters. So Stanford University has an alumni newsletter, the business school has its own alumni newsletter, so putting the episodes there has been really [00:17:00] helpful too.
[00:17:00] Neil McPhedran: Oh, that's great.
[00:17:01] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Yeah, I just had the title conversation with someone the other day because the biggest mistake I find when people make titles is they want to make them sexy and like eye-catching. And I'm like, no, you're trying to solve someone's problem, you're a business podcast. Why not say how to grow your business?
[00:17:17] And they're like, well, that's not sexy. And I said, yeah, but if I'm looking on how to grow my business and you're not, uh, interviewing like a guest of a name, I'm going to be more likely to click on that.
[00:17:27] Jenny Luna: I really think that we all are trying to be better and we're under this constant pressure to evolve ourselves and to get better at work, and to get better at home, and to be happier. I think a lot of times in these podcast titles, right, you're promising that you're going to improve their lives in some way. You're going to help them solve a problem, and I think that people are using podcasting as really this. I'm taking a walk, but I'm also improving my life. I'm doing my dishes, but I'm also gaining insight on how I can be better at work. So I think really playing into that can help the content do [00:18:00] well.
[00:18:00] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Well podcasting is the new self-help book essentially, because a lot of people don't like to read anymore, so it's a self-help book in an audio form, and like you said, you can do it anywhere.
[00:18:10] Jenny Luna: Yes. I never thought about that, but that's exactly right. You're right. We're wanting to read, we're wanting to multitask, and we still want to have our self-help.
[00:18:18] Neil McPhedran: Well, to combine the two things you guys just said, self-help and Jenny, you call it the menu. So we got my menu for self-help. I like that, the two of you. It's a good combo.
[00:18:27] Jenny Luna: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: That should be a podcast in itself.
[00:18:28] Neil McPhedran: There you go. I just wanted to double click in on the website. So just so I'm clear and we're clear, what you're saying is for each episode you basically create a separate webpage then, and that webpage is almost like an article with the transcript and more of a deeper dive into that into that episode? Am I hearing that correctly?
[00:18:48] Jenny Luna: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So each episode has its own episode page on our website. So the podcast itself has a landing page. Having that episode page then gave us a link to [00:19:00] share on social, this specific episode, that then drives people back to our website, which was an original goal of the podcast, to bring more people to the website.
[00:19:08] We use the same format that we do for writing articles about professor research. It has a title, a subhead, and then short walkup text that you know are very similar to the show notes, we have an embedded audio player, and then we have the transcript. Now, I don't think a majority of people are listening via the website. I think we've grown audiences and they're now on the various podcast [00:19:30] platforms. But launching it that way I think really helped, and it also gives us a canon that we can go back to. It's better for us to share the episode among Stanford and among professors on the website, than sending them to a Spotify link. So I think internally it's met a lot of goals as well.
[00:19:47] Neil McPhedran: That's a really smart strategy, and you're right, from an SEO perspective, that's super impactful. But as far as your internal goals of, instead of driving them to Spotify or Apple or something else, another platform, you're linking back to your website. So [00:20:00] that seems like a really, a really, clever and smart tactic for sure too.
[00:20:04] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Well, you're giving yourself a benefit too, and this is the thing that I talk about, I said, everyone's so focused on listens, like I'm not successful until I get listens. It's like actually, if you use podcasting, right, it gives you other benefits.
[00:20:16] So I like to use it as, like, the ultimate marketing tool because it can keep your content consistent because you take one episode and you can break it into posts, you can break it into a blog and you can drive traffic back to your website. And I'm like, what other thing can [00:20:30] do that? And so people are so focused, and I get it, it's still kind of a gray area because podcasting is still relatively new to a lot of people, but everyone doesn't see the bigger picture of how it really can help you.
[00:20:40] Jenny Luna: Yeah, that's so true. And something that I haven't done before, but I'm trying to really get better at Jen, is what are the goals of the podcast?
[00:20:48] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:48] Jenny Luna: Because you're right, they're not just always downloads, they're not just listens. Especially when you work in higher ed, you have a lot of communication goals, you have a lot of brand goals. Very different than if you're a private podcast or you just maybe do want to get listens, but when,
[00:21:03] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: mm-hmm.
[00:21:03] Jenny Luna: When higher ed is, you have to disseminate research, you have to help support faculty. So there's so many more goals and I think, thinking about those goals before you even press record, is crucial.
[00:21:15] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: The power of podcasting is amazing, but you gotta look at what's a success and nobody's able to measure that yet, but there's so many different types of success besides just being the next Joe Rogan with millions of followers.
[00:21:27] Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that's why I think we've created this podcast, just because I think you're right, Jenny, the higher education space has a different set of goals and a different sort of landscape of success than, say, an e-commerce brand, or an individual that's looking to create some content and monetize it. It is a very unique world, higher education, and there's so many other things at play.
[00:21:50] Jenny Luna: I think about it all the time is, when people are going to grad school or they're thinking about going to a university, I did this myself before I went to grad school, you're combing social media to find people who are in that [00:22:00] program and you're reaching out to them. And you're like, Hey, can I ask you what it's like to be at Columbia Journalism School? Hey, can we talk about what it's like at Stanford GSB? I'm not quite sure if it's the right fit for me. That's exactly something a podcast can solve without these poor people who are so busy in school already giving these informational interviews to applicants, you know.
[00:22:18] MBA admissions programs or any admissions programs can make podcasts with people who are on campus about what it's like. Alumni community and the prospective student community, unfortunately those [00:22:30] aren't audiences that in my current role I work with a ton. But that's where I see a lot of higher ed capability. And when it comes to the workload, and like I said, the way I partner with Matt, I think there's a lot of opportunity for content creators in alumni units to partner with alumni, who are also trying to build their brand or who want to do podcasting or there's...
[00:22:50] Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Jenny Luna: ...an opportunity to partner on the admissions side with current students who are interested in podcasting. So I think those are two areas that higher ed could really benefit in the audio space.
[00:23:01] I think a luxury that I have, a lot of people are making podcasts on their own, they're hosting and producing, but I work really closely with Matt as he's the host and I'm the producer. So I get to say all the things to our guests that are uncomfortable, like, Hey, I'm sorry, can you stop putting your elbows on the table as you talk? It's really distracting. Um, I noticed that you just, uh, you know, took a sip of your coffee while you were mid sentence, we're going to have to take that again. [00:23:30] I'm going to come stick this microphone in your face and it's uncomfortable. But you know, so I think when you can work with a producer, you can work with someone who can really only be focusing on the audio quality. It lets the host. Do their job the best they can.
[00:23:43] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: And let's talk about that because you are fortunate to have a producer like yourself and other podcasts can't have that. What do you think more of the luxuries are of having a producer?
[00:23:53] Jenny Luna: That is a great question. So being able to have a producer, basically, is support all the way through. So whether that's as granular as helping a host schedule individual interviews, or providing a one pager for the host with, these are some great questions you should ask. These are some questions you shouldn't ask, this is the person's title and background, this is a short bio. That's all work that a producer can do to support the host.
[00:24:23] I think it also comes down to, like we talked about, writing show notes, writing episode titles, that's something that [00:24:30] a producer can do, getting everything shared on social media, and then being physically there in the room when recording happens, or being in the same virtual recording space to be able, you know, to support the host. I think my host feels more comfortable because I can tell him, You said that question funny, do you think you could ask that again? Or at the very end of the interview I'll say, you know, Michelle has some really interesting research on negotiation conflicts in the Middle East, could, will you [00:25:00] ask her about that because you forgot to during the interview and so, I can help him really turn his brain off in some ways so that he's not feeling like he has to juggle every single piece.
[00:25:10] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Your role is newer, like so I think until more people come out and like, oh, okay, well this is a producer role for business, because usually we think about producers in a traditional media sense like radio and tv. And so some people, some organizations and other bigger businesses might be like, well, why do I need a producer for the podcast? Why can't you just do [00:25:30] it as part of your social media duties? A lot of people don't realize that these roles are so crucial, but as we get, uh, the industry booms more, I think we'll start to see different, uh, positions like this through different companies for sure.
[00:25:44] Jenny Luna: Yeah, this is something that you can hire a contractor for a lot in your organization. You can hire someone to do the mixing, or interview prep, or interview research to be there during the interviews. Because what I found, I have a small group on Stanford campus of podcasters, these people are [00:26:00] also writing email newsletters, they're running the social media accounts, they're having to do a lot.
[00:26:06] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Well, it's interesting because that's how social media started out like too, it was like, oh, can you do this on top of your job? And a lot of people had to do it. Now there's positions that are social media marketers, people go to school for it. Um, there's titles along with them, but before it was just like, Hey, you're the accountant can you post some posts?
[00:26:28] Jenny Luna: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: You are the admin.
[00:26:29] Jenny Luna: You're under 25, could you be our social media person?
[00:26:33] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: But now you see job postings for that so I'm sure more of this stuff is going to evolve.
[00:26:38] Jenny Luna: That would make me so happy if there were higher ed job postings all over the place for podcast producer and that was the only thing someone had to do.
[00:26:47] Neil McPhedran: Well, this has been a great conversation, maybe just sort of as we close out our time with you today, Jenny, maybe is there any final, um, tips you could, or any final sort of thoughts. I [00:27:00] like, I loved, um, you've given us some really good things to think about for those who are just setting out on this path. Uh, you talked about starting with a pilot or whatever, but sort of any other thoughts or bits of advice you'd have for those that would be sort of in a similar, you know, in that marketing communications department as yourself, and they're starting to get into podcasting, or thinking about it and anything you think you could share with the audience?
[00:27:24] Jenny Luna: Yeah. I have two more things that are kind of on my mind right now when I talk about podcasting with people and [00:27:30] we touched on this a little bit, but you know, is a podcast the communication vessel?
[00:27:35] Is it the right way to carry the message that you're trying to carry? Is a podcast the right way to do that? And then if it is, come up with a theory and then test your theory and use the information you have to optimize that. So, always making it more efficient, but, um, you know, testing why you think it's going to be the best way to carry your message so that you can continually [00:28:00] prove that it's worth the effort. Because podcasting is a lot more difficult than people think. So it's your job to let them know what's entailed so that, if it's decided to make this big commitment, you know that you're making it with all the information you have.
[00:28:14] Okay, so something I really like to talk about when I'm talking about podcasting with others, especially those who are new or just starting a podcast, is how important it is to really have those first three to five episodes done, wrapped, and what we call in the can when you [00:28:30] launch your podcast episode. Because when you launch your podcast, because it's kind of a machine, it's kind of feeding the beast, so again, thinking about it as a pilot, a contained series first, and then when you launch, you have three ready. So you can be working on episode four, episode five, episode six, but you know that you have one, one through three done. So it's quite a long runway until you launch, but be patient and just make sure you have things [00:29:00] buttoned up before you're ready to publish the show.
[00:29:03] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: And I just love nerding out on radio with you.
[00:29:06] Jenny Luna: I want to see you in the helicopter doing the traffic report. That sounds so fun.
[00:29:13] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: You gotta patch into the local news, I was flying for the news last week. I fill in from time to time, but if you follow me on Instagram I'll put photos up of Vancouver from the sky and I'm just going to leave on this note, a lot of people forget to do this too. When you are putting them in the can, make sure the episodes are evergreen, [00:29:30] because even if you don't use them, like this month or next month, a lot of people make the mistake that either an event is mentioned, or something really crucial and a timeline is mentioned, and then they can't air that, or they do a topic that is so time sensitive.
[00:29:45] Jenny Luna: Higher ed unfortunately doesn't work as quickly as news, so doing time sensitive podcast episodes is extra difficult.
[00:29:52] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: But you don't want it to be time sensitive too, because if people go back to listen to season one and they're a big fan of yours, if you have all these episodes that are [00:30:00] very time sensitive, people are going to tune out and then you're not going to get the listens from your season one.
[00:30:06] Jenny Luna: Yeah. Any episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the deals directly with Covid, we have lower listenership.
[00:30:11] Neil McPhedran: Well, thank you so much, Jenny. Really, really, really appreciate your time and, uh, all your, uh, great insight and, uh, it was awesome to learn a little bit more about you as well too. So exciting.
[00:30:22] Jenny Luna: Yeah. I'm excited to listen to more episodes that you make of Continuing Studies. Thank you so much for having me, this has been a lot of fun.
[00:30:32] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Thank you.
[00:30:33] Neil McPhedran: Thanks so much.
[00:30:37] That was awesome Jen. You know, like one of the things that I really loved and I sort of took away from that conversation was how Jenny and her team at the graduate school business there, they've built podcasting like right into their whole department as one of the key channels. Just like they look at video, and they look at sort of each of their social media channels, and their website, but [00:31:00] podcasting is like looked at one of those key channels, it's not kind of like, sort of a little bit of this person or that person. And, what's interesting, is how much time actually, Jenny is focused on podcasting. It just sort of seems like more and more she's, you know, just sort of focused in on that key, on that key skillset.
[00:31:21] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I really like the fact that Jenny was honest with too, the audience size that they have with Think Fast, Talk Smart, because like she said, it's [00:31:30] amazing that it's been super, super successful, but that's not everybody's case when they start podcasting. But, I think what was successful for them, is they already had a big following on a lot of their channels for the Stanford School of Business, and then they took that following, and then they were able to launch the podcast and let other people know that already follow, the Stanford School of Business, that hey, we've got this podcast.
[00:31:56] And so I think it really worked for them too, because when you're wanting to podcast, you want to also make sure that you're finding your audience. We talk about that a lot, and it's like, if your audience is invested in the things that you're talking about, and you have it right there like the Stanford School of Business did, so why not use that? You don't need to go out and go to the masses on Instagram and everything, to start to a wider audience, start within your own and then create a really good following and inertia, and then move it over.
[00:32:27] Another thing that I really enjoyed about this episode, Is the fact that Matt is a professor and now he has this huge following. And before he would be teaching like 30 to a hundred people in his lectures, and now he's teaching like 300,000 people around the world. So even if you don't get to go to the Stanford School of Business, it's like you get to be there and you get to have Matt as a professor. So I just love the idea that podcasting is able to expand all these areas of interest and let you have experts. Like Matt, be able to teach you, [00:33:00] where we may might not be able to sit down and enjoy his lecture, but now we can.
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