Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Neil McPhedran: Happy 50th, Jen.

Jennifer-Lee: I know.

What kind of present do I get?

I feel like we've been
together for 50 episodes now.

What is that in anniversary terms?

Neil McPhedran: I don't know.

That's a good question.

Jennifer-Lee: Is it wood?

Is it gold?

I don't know.

Neil McPhedran: All I can say is
I'm really happy to have gotten

to episode 50 with you, Jen.

Jennifer-Lee: What did
the older people say?

A hundred more with you?

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

We've learned so much from so
many incredible higher education

podcasters along the way.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

I've learned so much from you
and our podcast guests, and I

can't wait for more episodes.

Cheers.

We need some bubbly.

We'll get on that.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies, a podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder
of Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations,

podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there, and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: That's right Jen,
and a good place to learn and find

other higher education podcasters is
HigherEdPods.com, where there is over

a thousand other higher education
podcasts now in the directory.

Jennifer-Lee: That's exciting.

One of those is the podcast that we're
talking about today, Normal Curves.

Neil McPhedran: Yes, you're right, Jen.

Normal Curves is definitely one
of the podcasts that you can find

in Higher Ed Pods and actually
Normal Curves is a newish podcast.

So they launched, I think they've got
seven episodes out there, and it's from

two professors, Kristin Sainani, who
is a professor at Stanford University

and Regina Nuzzo who is a professor at
Gallaudet University, and she's actually

a part-time lecturer at Stanford as well.

I really love their podcast, Jen,
and I know you've enjoyed listening

to a few of their episodes too.

Jennifer-Lee: I love it, and I love the
fact that it's called Normal Curves:

Sexy Science and Serious Statistics.

Because sometimes I feel like with
science we take ourself too serious.

So I really love the fact that
they are bubbly personalities.

They're women, they're
scientific journalists, and

they're professors as well.

So I'm excited to talk to 'em about some
of these topics, like the one which, you

know, I was just listening to, Hookworms:
Can Parasites Improve Your Health?

Which sounds kind of
gross, but I'm excited.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, so we wanted
to chat with them because we really

wanted to get into their journey around
launching a podcast and how that's

gone now that they're fresh into that.

So let's just get into our conversation.

Jennifer-Lee: Let's get started.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome,
Kristin and Regina.

Thanks for joining us here
on Continuing Studies.

It's so nice to have you here today.

Regina Nuzzo: Good to be here.

Kristin Sainani: Great to be here Neil.

Thanks for having us.

Neil McPhedran: So first off,
you two are longtime friends,

if I understand that correctly.

And you were actually students
together at Stanford, is that correct?

Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, a couple years ago.

Kristin Sainani: Just a few.

Regina Nuzzo: Back in the day.

Yes.

We were grad students at the same
time, and we were friends because

our boyfriends were friends.

Kristin Sainani: Yeah, they introduced us.

The boyfriend's long gone though.

Neil McPhedran: The
boyfriends are long gone.

But you two and your friendship
is longstanding and now

you're podcast hosts together.

Kristin Sainani: Yes.

Neil McPhedran: Excellent.

Regina Nuzzo: I don't, I think if you
had asked us back in the day, will

you be podcasting together, first of
all, we would say, what is a podcast?

But yes.

Second of all, no.

You don't think of these things in
grad school, how lasting they are,

but it's really the basis for a good
collegial relationship and a friendship.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I like that.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

And you have a podcast called
Normal Curves, and I was listening

to an episode today on Hookworms.

I wasn't sure at first,
I had to tell Neil.

I looked at some of your other episodes
'cause I was scared to listen to that

one because when I saw worms, I didn't
realize they were worms for good.

I thought, I thought it was like,
what happens if you contract a worm?

And I was like, terrified.

And he is like, no, no, you
gotta like listen to it.

So I still don't think I would try
it, but it sounds really interesting

like back in the day when you watch
those shows about the kings and

queens and they're like using leeches.

Anyways, tell us a little
bit more about your podcast.

How did you guys end up, you're
friends, and you both work at

Stanford, but like, how were you
like, oh, let's create a podcast

together and talk about weird things?

Kristin Sainani: So I invited
Regina to come co-teach a

course with me at Stanford.

So she actually flies out from
Gallaudet a couple weekends in the

summer to teach this course with me.

And we do it, uh, flipped classroom.

So we pre-taped the lectures and when
we taped the lectures, we decided

to do them video podcast style.

So we have a conversation,
we talk about case studies.

And our students the first year
said, hey, we're watching these on

Friday night instead of Netflix.

Um, possibly just buttering us up,
but we think it was genuine and

they asked us if we had a podcast.

So that's, the seed was planted.

Regina Nuzzo: But then the second cohort
and the third cohort did the same thing.

So we thought, oh, maybe, maybe we
should check this out and actually do it.

They wanted to keep on learning
statistics, which was really exciting,

and I think shows the power of podcasting.

And learning through conversation.

Neil McPhedran: Is that ultimately
sort of what you were hoping to

achieve from the podcast then, is
just to continue that learning?

Or what did you hope to achieve, or what
do you hope to achieve from this podcast?

Regina Nuzzo: Definitely teaching.

Kristin and I feel very strongly about
understanding evidence, understanding

statistics, and being able to
apply this in your everyday life.

And so we choose the fun subject
like hookworms as a way to

investigate the science behind that.

Also, other things that we have planned,
but along the way you learn statistics

and evidence and epidemiology and research
methods, and we delight in that because

Kristin and I are also science journalist,
the ability to teach and entertain at the

same time, it's a very heady combination.

Jennifer-Lee: Do you ever incorporate
then your podcast into any of the lectures

that you guys do, or use it as reference
or get the students to use it as a way

to get more information on a topic?

Do you ever put it into tests?

And I'm only asking 'cause some of
the people, Neil and I have talked

to have actually done this stuff
with their podcasts in the past.

Kristin Sainani: We are planning
to, so we are not far enough along

yet that we've had the opportunity
to drop it in our classes.

But that is the plan.

And actually we do envision this as a
teaching tool that others could use.

And I, a friend of mine
recommended it to her kids high

school AP statistics teacher.

So we're hoping, you know, that'll
set it in motion and people will

start using it as a teaching tool.

Yes.

Neil McPhedran: So then from an
audience perspective, it is a

bit more of a focused audience.

Then I know we've been joking about
the topics here so far, but it

really is meant to be a more learning
cerebral, you are digging into real

statistical components and isn't
necessarily for the wider audience.

There is a more, a smaller sort of
focused audience for this show then.

Regina Nuzzo: I might disagree with that.

Neil McPhedran: Okay, great.

Regina Nuzzo: Kristin might agree, but
we can have a little conflict on this.

It'll be fun.

I like the idea of people tuning in, I
think there are a lot of people, just

general listeners out in the world
that miss school and they want to

continue learning, but they don't want
to take classes and listen to lectures.

They want to learn through stories
and fun things and people having

good conversations with each other.

So I think in the back of our minds,
yeah, maybe kind of targeted, oh, learn.

But it's combined with this idea
of ambient learning, entertainment.

You get something along the way.

Jennifer-Lee: I agree with you, because
there was a stat out a few years ago, and

they said the majority of people listen
to podcasts to learn something new.

And that's not necessarily
students, that's anybody.

And that's why we listen to podcasts.

So I totally agree with you.

I also have to say, I just love
the tagline for your podcast.

So it's like Normal Curves: Sexy
Science, But Serious Statistics.

And I totally think that sums
up exactly what you guys do.

Kristin Sainani: Yeah.

We might have like a primary audience
in mind that's a little bit of grad

students and people, young scientists
trying to learn some statistics.

But I think we also keep in mind that
we have lots of people listening to

it that are not studying statistics.

My kids like it.

My kids have been listening, and they
just feel like it's fun to listen to.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's
great what you're saying.

You get into the weeds enough in the
statistics stuff for it to work for

your grad students, but at the same
time it's, Regina, as you said, it's

approachable for a wider audience.

Kristin Sainani: We both are advocates
for making science approachable and

making scientists better communicators.

I have a whole course on Coursera
where I'm trying to get scientists

to write more clearly for everyone.

So I think it's a part
of our vibe as well.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

So as our audience is other higher
education podcasters, maybe we can

just sort of get into some of the
minutiae here about producing and how

you launched and so on and so forth.

A lot of the podcasters we've
interviewed to date are more tightly

aligned with their universities.

You've launched and you are producing
Normal Curves with, from what I

understand, without much support from
Stanford or from Gallaudet University.

That's correct, right?

Regina Nuzzo: Zero support.

Neil McPhedran: Okay.

Because we hear a lot and just
in our day-to-day work, it's

like, you know, working with
comms departments within schools.

It's like professors approach
them, I wanna start a podcast.

So did you approach either of your
schools for support off the bat or

you just gone out on your own on this?

Kristin Sainani: This was more of a
pet project, so we didn't even think

to approach anybody for support.

It's not that they didn't support us,
it's just that we just started this

sort of while we're both on sabbatical
and had some time for a pet project.

Jennifer-Lee: Your podcast,
though, is really highly produced.

Do you guys do all of that?

Kristin Sainani: Yes.

Regina Nuzzo: Kristin
is our amazing editor.

Who does not like technology.

So I think it makes it all the more
amazing that she is doing all of that.

Yes.

Kristin Sainani: Well, I'm a
reluctant adopter of technology,

but then when I get it, I like it.

But it's the bar of getting over
learning something new because

it's supposed to just do what you
want it to do and often it doesn't.

And that drives me crazy.

We do have, I do send it to, I'll put
a plugin for East Coast podcasting.

They do the final polish on the sound.

I am doing the editing out of
the, you know, when we mess up

and rearranging and stuff though,
that was quite a learning curve.

Regina Nuzzo: I think that we have certain
freedom though, Neil, getting back to

your question about institutional support.

It's nice to be independent.

You can be a iconoclastic, you
can talk about your dating life,

your love life, and not worry.

You don't need to
represent the institution.

So I think it comes with certain
disadvantages, but advantages as well.

Neil McPhedran: You do have the
disclaimer in your intro that this

is separate from your day jobs, which
I think is a smart thing to have

in there, but that's an interesting
insight that it gives you the freedom.

I also think, Kristin, it's interesting
that you never even thought about that.

As I said, we hear this all the time,
especially from the folks we work with

in the comms department, that a prof sort
of, here, we wanna do this, help us do

this, make this happen kind of a thing.

So I love that you guys kind
of branched out on your own.

But that said, have you heard
from any of your colleagues or

the universities that anyone,

Kristin Sainani: Neil, I also think
it's our journalistic background.

So we didn't feel the need to go
through the communications because

we already had that training.

I did reach out to somebody
in communications and say,

hey, can you write about it?

They haven't yet, but I'm hoping.

Jennifer-Lee: But the school's
obviously are aware that you guys

are doing it and they haven't told
you to stop, so that's awesome.

Regina Nuzzo: There you go.

Exactly.

Neil McPhedran: So let's dig
into a little bit about your

pre-launch process, your journey.

So you got this push from
some students and the two of

you went, hey, let's do this.

So how long from, we're gonna start a
podcast to actually launching was it,

and maybe just sort of tell us a little
bit about that pre-launch journey.

What did you learn along the way?

Regina Nuzzo: That was a long journey.

Kristin, 2022?

Is that the first time we actually
started talking about this, I think?

Three years?

Kristin Sainani: Yeah.

We started talking about
this as a book first.

And then we kind of went back and
forth, but we decided on podcast.

We didn't really start working
on it till the end of 2023.

I had a little cancer in the
middle, so that also, yeah, we,

we had a little break in, we got
kind of going on it and rolling.

And then I had a stage one breast cancer.

So that derailed it for a bit
and then we got back on it.

Regina Nuzzo: Also, we had
no idea what we were doing.

So it takes a little while.

You're finding your way yourself.

Kristin Sainani: The first episode,
I think, well, didn't end up being

the first episode, but the first
one we taped probably took us a long

time to get through the whole thing.

Neil McPhedran: Did you sort
of, from there, you gotta

record it and listen to it.

Is there stuff you can share with
others out there that are at this, we

wanna do a podcast, what do we need to
think about before we actually launch?

Kristin Sainani: I think Vitamin
D might've been the first

one we taped, we worked on.

That was like the first
one I wanted to tackle.

Or was it Red Dress?

One of those two.

But I can tell you that it took a
very long time, a ridiculously long

time to get to a final product.

Because we didn't really know
how we were framing it or the

organization, the narrative.

And alcohol as well.

Yeah, we did many iterations, yeah.

Regina Nuzzo: Kristin I think had
a good insight that I resisted

at first, but I will call it out.

She said, we just need to start.

We have no idea what we're doing, so let's
just go into the booth, turn it on, record

and just start talking because the only
way to climb a mountain is just to start.

So there were a lot of
iterations in there.

Kristin Sainani: Yes.

And I also like to research a lot.

So some of those, I did quite a
bit of reading of papers to prep,

but then we just went in and talked
about like, oh, I found this.

I found that.

Jennifer-Lee: That's so important
though, because I was gonna say,

you've gotta get in there and start
sometimes, but it's always important

to be prepped for your podcast.

Which brings me to, how much research
do you guys do for these topics?

Because obviously you're
giving statistics.

You have to give out
information that is proper.

And a lot of people don't realize,
like to do a statistics podcast.

It's not like an easy feat.

So how much research
goes into each episode?

Regina Nuzzo: A lot.

Kristin Sainani: But this is where
Regina's got it down a little better

than me because I tend to fall down
a rabbit hole and I'm like, I'm going

to research all of vitamin D and
like, you know, five weekends later.

Whereas Regina has been more disciplined
and been able to stick to a few papers.

And we can really dig into those.

Regina Nuzzo: I think you can
see the two sides of us come

out with this because we're both
professor and science journalists.

So professors say, ooh,
these are great facts.

I wanna put this in here because
I learned so much about it.

And surely it's important.

And surely everyone else wants to know all
of the details and all of the great story.

And then the science journalist in us
say, wait a minute, just because you think

it's interesting and you've learned it
does not mean that everyone else needs

to learn it or should learn it if it
doesn't help the story, the narrative.

So I think you see a swinging
wildly back and forth between

those two personas when we prepare.

Jennifer-Lee: And I think you're
doing a really good job because even

though this is directed, like you were
mentioning earlier, to students and

people would understand these topics,
what you guys are talking about, but

like Neil said, you're not limiting
your audience because you're not putting

it in such a high category that I was
actually able to understand everything.

Like, I love the Red Dress episode.

I almost kind of want
to go buy a red dress.

You kind of do the thing like The
Magic School Bus does for kids.

It's like you are putting it in
layman's terms that I understand,

but it's a fun atmosphere.

Like you've got The Magic
School Bus effect going on.

Regina Nuzzo: I love that so much.

Thank you.

I'm stealing that.

Neil McPhedran: The Magic School Bus.

I like that, Jen.

Jennifer-Lee: Magic School Bus effect.

Neil McPhedran: Yep.

There you go.

Kristin Sainani: We're
gonna use that in marketing.

Neil McPhedran: Jen did ask you
a little bit about your process.

You're on two different ends of
the country, three times zones

away, and you're doing a lot of the
editing and production yourselves.

So maybe just, um, could you just
share a little bit more about your

process and how you guys collaborate
together in two different time zones?

Regina Nuzzo: So the recording
process does present some challenges.

At first, we tried me flying out
to California, where we would sit

next to each other in the booth.

I'm glad actually we started that
way because I feel like there's a

certain synergy that happens when
you get two people to together.

We have now switched to, time
zones are still a problem.

So I end up working a little
later, but me in my closet, in

my apartment, where I am now, and
Kristin has a nice booth to work in.

Kristin Sainani: Yes, I have access to
a booth and Regina is in her closet.

Neil McPhedran: So each of you picks
a, a topic or a focus, and then you

research up front, and then you come
together and you start recording?

And then Kristin, you're doing the
sort of first cut of the editing

and you get some outside help
for the final post production?

Kristin Sainani: So we're
switching off leading the topics.

And what we do is one person goes
off and researches, and then we

get together and do sort of a
first take of talking it through.

And basically it's one of us asking
a lot of questions and also us

identifying what are the statistical
topics that we wanna bring out because

we can't talk about all of them.

So we have to pick a few per episode.

And then we refine it from there.

And hopefully get two good takes, so that
in editing, if I need a backup, we have

a backup take that I can grab from if
something goes wrong with the microphone

or we talk over each other or whatever.

And yeah, I'm doing most of the, the
editing, because Regina has a cochlear

implant, it's a little bit harder
for her to hear the subtleties, but

she's helping me with, I'm going back
and saying, okay, what can we cut?

Because sometimes, especially
my episodes, are too long.

Regina Nuzzo: I think it's helpful
the format that we've set up where

one person is responsible for most
of the research on the topic, and the

other person comes in relatively fresh
because they are the audience proxy.

So it's very helpful to have that
other person asking questions

because it brings an arc for the
story that it wouldn't occur to you.

So I like how we have this back
and forth, switching things off.

I know in other podcasts, both
people come in super prepared and I

feel like you get a lot of cursive
knowledge that way because you don't

have that fresh outside perspective.

Neil McPhedran: I really
like that approach.

And you can actually, when you
listen to your episodes, you could

probably make that assumption.

You could sort of tell who
brought the topic to the table?

I think actually you even addressed
that in a couple of the episodes.

It probably helps as well from a
prep perspective, that each of you

is responsible for every second
episode to go deep as well too.

So that's probably a good
takeaway for the audience.

I'd also like to circle back though,
the way you did it is great, where the

first few episodes you sat together.

I do think there is something in there
and agree with you that to find your

voice and to find your comfort even
though you guys have been friends for

years and you're very familiar with
each other and comfortable with each

other, it's a different thing to put a
mic in front of your face and to start

recording and to record a podcast.

So I think that's another really good
insight for us all of thinking about it.

And so you do two takes, or more.

And then you're taking them and you're
putting them together as one episode.

I think that's a really
interesting approach too.

Kristin Sainani: We, we do an initial
take that's just for the laughs and the

asking all the questions, but then we
do two takes because I've found in the

editing that sometimes I need a second
take to grab from, I have a backup in

case the mic is reverberating or whatever.

Or just we talked over each other or
somebody said the wrong number, you know?

So I have a backup.

Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, we've also
learned that working in chunks helps.

So we go in that first take just
exploring together, but then we have an

idea of the backbone of how it's going
to go, and then we have a rough script.

And we've realized that taking
things in chunks just makes it a

little easier to edit and a little
easier to say over and over.

It took us a while to figure
that out because sometimes we

were just doing take after take.

And it got a little unwieldy.

Kristin Sainani: We have about 25
chunks per episode, so we tape the

chunk once and then we tape it again.

So sometimes that second
take is a little cleaner.

Jennifer-Lee: I would never know though.

It seems so natural.

It seems like you guys, um, turned
on the mic and you're doing it.

But again, the more prepped and stuff
you are the more natural you come off.

So how do you find the topics?

I'm curious because like how do
you find the topics that you talk

about because they're so good.

Regina Nuzzo: Some of it is what
Kristin and I had covered when we were

doing a lot of science journalism.

So Kristen wrote a health column
for a beauty magazine, Allure

magazine for a decade, and she
covered health studies there.

For a little while I was writing for
the Los Angeles Times and doing a column

on sex, kind of mating, dating sex.

But Along the way, we covered studies
that were, uh, questionable quality.

And so some of what we are doing
now is an opportunity to go back and

recover what we did before and kind
of do our, our penance for that.

Kristin Sainani: Yeah.

I had 150 words per study, so you
couldn't get a lot in, so there

was a lot more I had to say.

And I think Regina similarly.

There's just a, we felt like
there was a lot more to cover, but

when you're writing for magazine
or newspaper, it's very short.

Regina Nuzzo: I think we're also
picking things that are in the popular

imagination that are in headlines.

And you always wonder, hmm, what
is the evidence behind that?

Because other journalists are covering
it too, and they don't have room.

But we have the opportunity
to go a little deeper.

I am tending to pick things
that have to do with dating or

relationships or sex or gross science.

And Kristin is doing a lot with health.

So we're also gravitating towards
things that we enjoy ourselves.

And I think that's key because we
spend a lot of time doing this.

Kristin Sainani: And these are topics
I've been following for years and I

often use in my own teaching at Stanford.

So some of the bad papers or good
papers I've already used in teaching

before and that's, they're in my bucket.

Neil McPhedran: So how did
you launch Normal Curves?

Did you have a network to lean into?

What was your first initial
push to get it out there?

I think a lot of podcasters, this
is something that they'd probably

love to hear from you guys about how
you kind of approached your launch.

Kristin Sainani: We didn't
really know what we were doing.

I do have some following through,
I have a writing course I teach

on Coursera, which again is trying
to get scientists to write better.

And so I had somewhat
of a following on that.

So I had an audience, and I think in
developing the podcast, we were thinking

a little bit about that audience,
young scientists, grad students.

Regina Nuzzo: Kristen is very
goal oriented, so I love it.

She said, okay, here's the date.

We just have to pick a
date and we have to launch.

We're not going to be ready.

We have no idea what we're doing,
but we just need to do it anyway.

And if it were me, I would keep delaying
until we were, you know, 200% ready.

And there is something to be said for
having a Kristin on your team that's

like, nope, we're just doing it anyway.

And then find yourself along the way.

And Neil, of course, you and your team
were super helpful, like honestly.

We had no idea what we were doing
technically, or marketing or any of that.

And you guys were amazing
in helping with that.

Neil McPhedran: Thank you.

Regina Nuzzo: Yes, yes.

Neil McPhedran: I wasn't looking
for that from the question I asked.

Regina Nuzzo: It's okay.

Kristin Sainani: I don't know if we
should admit there was a shift in title.

Regina Nuzzo: Oh, that's right.

Neil McPhedran: What?

What was the original title?

Kristin Sainani: Are we
giving that away, Regina?

Regina Nuzzo: Yes.

I think we should give it away.

Kristin Sainani: Yes.

it was originally gonna be Sex,
Beauty, and Statistics, and that was

recognizing that Regina had written
about sex for general audiences,

science of, again, and I had written
about beauty for general audiences.

Actually it was about health,
but it was for a beauty magazine.

So it incorporated those tracks
as well as the statistics.

Regina Nuzzo: And Neil, you and your team
helped us explore and helped us come up

with the Normal Curves, which we love.

And the fun logo and tagline.

Kristin Sainani: Well, Regina,
the fun logo is all you.

That was a stroke of, of genius.

I think another reason we didn't
go to our, ask for institutional

support, it was because originally
there was sex in the title.

Regina Nuzzo: I do think it's
helpful, so much of this requires

inside knowledge, I think already.

How do you even choose a platform?

Where do you go?

Where do the files go?

You have files, what do you do with them?

How do you do all of this?

What is an RSS feed, right?

All of these things, it's helpful if
you have a friend or if you have, you

know, someone like you, Neil, to come
in and break it down step by step

because it seems obvious to you, but
not to two professors starting out.

Kristin Sainani: Right.

We knew nothing.

Regina Nuzzo: I guess then that is a
perfect way to lead into, for anyone

thinking of starting a podcast,
what is some advice you can give?

Kristin Sainani: Just do it.

We didn't think too hard about it.

We just got in the booth
and started taping.

Regina Nuzzo: Are most of the podcasters
that you work with, are they doing it

solo or do they have co-hosts together?

Jennifer-Lee: Most of mine
are interview style podcasts.

So there'd be one host, interview.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

We work with a lot of single
hosts that's not co-hosts.

Kristin Sainani: So
that, that's good advice.

If you wanna start a podcast, get a
co-host because that has made it doable.

I wouldn't have been able
to do this on my own.

Jennifer-Lee: But I will say when
I worked back in radio, I learnt,

you don't always have great rapport
with everybody as a co-host.

I've been lucky.

I co-host this podcast with
Neil, so we're lucky that we

have the rapport that we have.

But not everyone has it.

And you guys being friends, you can
really tell that it's genuinely really

great because not everybody clicks.

So that would be my advice if
people are co-hosts, just don't

find a warm body to be your co-host.

But your friendship, I think is really why
you guys feed off of each other so well.

Regina Nuzzo: I think that
it's also helpful, right?

Rapport, respect, all of that, but
finding someone who has complimentary

skills and personality, bringing this,
because two of me would be too many,

two of Kristin would be too many.

So bringing that together because
you get different strengths that

way, different perspectives.

And I think it's also helpful to have
a co-host because when you start to

lose, you know, faith in yourself,
luckily Kristin and I, throughout

this process, at least one of us was
always a hundred percent on board,

even if the other person wasn't.

So that creates a certain
momentum, I think.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

I like that.

I met Jen, I had been
thinking about doing this.

I was thinking there was an
opportunity to, you know, this would

be a good way to meet more higher
education podcasters and to really

lean in and to learn more about it.

When I met Jen, I was like,
hey, you wanna do this with me?

And I agree, that's been a great
part of the journey is doing it with

someone else and, and Jen came with
more of a background into interviewing

and the space and whatnot too.

So pairing up or teaming up and finding a
colleague or a friend to tag team it with,

I think that's some good advice there too.

Regina Nuzzo: I think it's helpful
also to think in terms of story and not

lecture because a lot of your audience are
coming from this academic background, and

it's a different experience to lecture.

You come in, you need to deliver
content, you have a captive audience.

It's very different than podcasting.

And the podcasting, thinking about being
friends with your audience and telling

stories that they will be interested
in is a little bit of a switch, so I

would advise professors who don't have
that sort of background to maybe try

to think like a journalist that way.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's some
really good advice 'cause I think

that especially for professors
to think that way differently.

And obviously as science writers
and journalists, you brought a

different perspective to the table
where you had experience doing that.

It wasn't just, here's the facts,
you had to weave a story into your

articles and into your writing.

And it comes out too in the
way you approach things.

And I think that's what makes it more
approachable and to a wider audience

where there's something more to it.

Kristin Sainani: We'd actually spend a
lot of time thinking about the narrative

arc. So when we do that first take in the
booth, after that, we then start to say,

oh, when this goes here, this goes here.

And we often move around based, not what
the natural conversation was, but where

can we build a better narrative arc.

Neil McPhedran: So you're now
seven episodes in, I would assume

you're starting to hear from your
audience, any feedback that you've

received that's surprised you.

Anything that sort of made you rethink
something or just, I guess it must be

interesting to start to hear feedback
just in general from an audience.

Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, it's
qualitative instead of quantitative.

We can look at the download the numbers.

But it's much more interesting to see the
comment, the stories from actual people.

We've gotten some fantastic comments that
really I think help keep us going when

we think about how much work this is.

Jennifer-Lee: Any comments
from the students?

Regina Nuzzo: One of the nice things
we started to hear from young graduate

students, postdocs, which we were
expecting, but we heard from female grad

students, for example, saying it's so nice
to have a sciencey podcast with two women

instead of, you know, these bro casts
and that you are women and you don't mind

coming in and being human and fun and sexy
and smart and strong at the same time.

And for Kristin and me, that's just,
oh, that's, that's just so exciting.

We didn't have role models like that when
we were coming up through grad school.

Neil McPhedran: That is great.

You guys are the anecdote to the bro cast.

Jennifer-Lee: I love it.

I'm stealing that one.

Neil McPhedran: So, well,
I think that was great.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

I think it's been great to hear about
your journey, and we've learned a lot.

I think there's some really good, tangible
insights for those out there thinking

about planning to launch a podcast.

Really appreciate your time
and your, uh, candor today.

Regina Nuzzo: It's has been fun.

Thanks for having us.

Neil McPhedran: Well, that was a
fun conversation, wasn't it, Jen?

Jennifer-Lee: I feel like I
could talk to 'em forever.

I felt like we were like at a bar
gabbing together with a bottle of wine.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's what's
great about their podcast is to a

certain extent they're achieving that
you feel like you're part of this

conversation that they're having, but
also it's part lecture as well too.

I think they've really done a good
job of figuring out both those sides

and as we talked about the importance
of storytelling and as they talked

about, there's a story arc and the
way that they approach their episodes.

They're not trying to give a
lecture, they're trying to weave

it into a story and to make it
more interesting for the listener.

Jennifer-Lee: It's definitely not
like the lectures that I used to

go to a university where you fell
asleep during half the lecture.

I like the fact that they're
making it fun for us regular people

that aren't going into science.

I really enjoyed it because they were able
to talk to me like I was on par with them.

It's like watching The Magic School Bus.

Fun but informative.

Neil McPhedran: I think there's a
lot of really interesting learnings

there for us as podcasters too.

One of the things that struck me was how
they do multiple takes and how they work

it down into chunks, and then they'll do
a couple of versions of that, and then

Kristin has so much to choose from when
she goes into, put that edit together.

You wouldn't know that they were
actually recording it that way.

And I think, as you said when we were
chatting with them, it really goes

to show that that prep and practice
and multiple takes actually leads to

this more casual, almost approachable
conversation that you wouldn't know

how much has actually gone into it
when you listen to the final product.

Jennifer-Lee: You know that
saying practice makes perfect.

It's the same thing.

And if you're not prepared,
you're gonna fumble and you're

going to not sound great.

Be prepared, and you'll sound casual.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

Jennifer-Lee: You feel confident and
you're not gonna care if you screw up, but

if you don't prep, you're gonna be nervous
because you don't know what you're saying.

Anyways, thank you for tuning into the
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