Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Heather Bigley: It's important to show our
students that they're not alone out there.

They can get together with other
people of other faiths and of

no faith and solve problems.

If we can teach them that through
this podcast and they can teach

other people that through this
podcast, then I think we've done

something that's really important.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing
Studies, a podcast for higher education

podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium
Podcast Company and Higher Ed Pods.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations,

podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
Higher Ed podcasters out there and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: You're right, Jen,
and just, I know that we, I think in

our pre, one of our previous episodes
we mentioned, we brought up PodCon

again being in Cleveland this upcoming
July, so we're committed to that.

We are gonna be opening up the website for
early registration in the next week or so.

So we'll be, we'll be putting out
a notification about that and we're

already starting to look for keynote
speakers and things like that.

So if anyone out there is listening,
if you have ideas, we'd love to hear

and we'll let you know when that,
uh, when the, uh, website opens

up for, uh, early registration.

Uh, we're really excited for year two,
expanding to two days, um, and just

a lot of, uh, we're gonna build upon
all the amazing stuff that we, all the

amazing community that we built in year
one, and build upon all that knowledge

that we all garnered coming out of it.

Jennifer-Lee: And great guests like
who we have on the podcast today.

Neil McPhedran: Yes.

Just so happened to have another
one of our friends from the

first PodCon, which is amazing.

So in this episode, we are
chatting with Heather Bigley.

She is a senior producer at BYU Radio.

BYU Radio is part of the larger BYU
broadcasting team, and that's obviously

Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah.

So we had a really cool conversation
here with Heather about, uh, uh, about

BYU Radio and how podcasting fits in.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and they have
fancy studios and, and we discuss

it more, but they really do have
resources for faculty or students

that are looking to build a podcast.

So very exciting.

So let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Welcome, Heather.

Great to have you here on the
Continuing Studies podcast.

Heather Bigley: Thank you.

I'm excited and a little
nervous and excited.

Neil McPhedran: No need,
no need to be nervous.

Jennifer-Lee: Where are
you broadcasting out today?

Heather Bigley: So I am at BYU
Radio, which is part of BYU in

Provo, Utah, the lovely Provo, Utah.

We, in fact, tried to convince
Higher Ed PodCon to come

here next year and, um, lost.

And that's fine.

Jennifer-Lee: That's too bad because
Utah, I've been to Utah, it's

actually very beautiful and there's
a lot of great things in Utah.

Heather Bigley: Yes.

I was like, I know it's a 40 minute
ride from the airport, but once

you're here, there are like canyons
every 10 minutes that you can just

disappear into and it'll be beautiful.

But maybe another time.

So Provo, Utah, home to the Cougars,
and also neighbors to UVU, which was

recently in the news, sadly enough.

So yeah, they're kind of our
local competition, if you will.

And yeah, what should
I say about BYU Radio?

It's an interesting place because I
think most colleges have a college

radio station and that's aimed at
students, and students run it and

students learn all kinds of skills.

And this has always been sort of,
we're community radio, but it's run

by full-timers who develop shows.

We have a ton of students who come in
and, you know, for instance, I have

five students currently on my team, and
they do all kinds of video editing and

audio editing and producing for us, but
it's not necessarily that student led

organization that people might be more
familiar with at other universities.

Neil McPhedran: Interesting.

I just have to say that spending
some time digging into BYU Radio,

I think it's an amazing resource.

We'll absolutely put a link
to it in our show notes.

I would encourage all higher
education podcasters to check it out.

I think it's really amazing how you've
put together radio and podcasting.

So maybe you can explain to us how does
podcasting fit into the BYU Radio entity?

Heather Bigley: Yeah, so I was hired
three years ago when they were making a

pivot away from radio into podcasting.

So they had always had a radio show.

In fact, we have two radio stations,
um, that broadcast stuff out

of here, and they decided three
years ago to pivot to podcasting.

We still have the radio stuff and most of
our stuff goes out locally on what we call

linear stations to our local audience.

But our new idea is because we are
basically from the church of Jesus Christ

of Latter Day Saints, our core audience
originally has been members of the church.

And we have so many members of the church
who are all over America and even all over

the world, it made sense to make content
that would be available to them, to the

folks living in, I wanna say Michigan.

We have folks living in Boston and DC
and North Carolina and LA and all over

who might want access to our content.

So that was the original impetus and
now it's more that we're not actually

aimed at that core audience anymore.

We're trying to aim at fellow people who
are interested in faith forward content.

We're trying not to be specifically quote
unquote Mormon, but more like, you might

be interested in interfaith content.

Let's invite you into the conversation
that we're having and how we're

talking about faith and living
life here in the United States.

Lots of different shows, right?

So we've got top of mind,
which is contemporary issues.

And then I also produce In Good
Faith, which is an interfaith show.

We interview people from all faiths
about their relationship with the Divine.

We have The Lisa Show, which is a
lifestyle show for basically Gen Xers.

We have Constant Wonder, which is
a show about awe in science and

history and all kinds of places.

And then we have Take a Leap,
which I think is what I was sort

of invited on here to talk about,
which is aimed at a youth audience.

Jennifer-Lee: Yes.

Before we get into that, I just wanna
know more about what is your actual role.

Heather Bigley: So I am a senior
producer and originally was hired to

work on In Good Faith and just start
producing that on consistent level.

Now I am executive
producer of Take a Leap.

And I also have my own
show called Voiceover.

We talk to people about the movies that
move them because I have a PhD in film.

Neil McPhedran: Right.

There you go.

So, okay, so back to Take a Leap.

How does Take a Leap
fit into BYU Radio then?

Heather Bigley: So Take a Leap
evolved out of the fact that In

Good Faith we were having all
of our student producers on mic.

Basically, as you create your own intro
and outro, we were doing that with our

interviews and because our students
were also helping to edit the interviews

and produce the interviews, we would
bring them in and say, okay, so what,

in this interview with this Muslim
leader was really important to you?

What stuck out to you as something
that is gonna leave an impression.

And so they would get on mic and say
these short little things and we had

trained all of these students and then
we were like, we should have a student,

'cause we're at a college, we should
have a show aimed at young people.

The difficulty with Take a Leap is
we're trying to decide do young people

actually listen to podcasts, right?

That's been our issue.

And in fact, some research that, uh,
one of my students did was, she dug

deep and saw that young people actually
are more likely to listen to shows

that are established for adults like
Joe Rogan or whatever it is, Smartless

or whatever, than they are to listen
to shows aimed, quote unquote them.

So that's been a difficulty, but
it's a show that my students produce.

They pick all the guests, they interview
all the guests, they edit everything.

They put it through our distribution
networks, and I'm really there just to

like, especially when we're training
new students, is to go through and

edit and say, maybe we should lead with
this question instead of that question.

So I'm really in a training capacity in a
lot of ways, and I also am the person who

signs the digital release forms, right?

Like that's my job.

I guess in a way, you know, because
I'm hiring the students and I'm helping

to train them to some degree, i'm
shaping the show, but really it is

about what are they interested in?

Who do they wanna interview?

And the interview, the people
they choose are people of faith

who are out there motivated by
their faith to change the world.

That's our hope, is that we're finding
people who wanna solve problems and

they're solving those problems because
they feel, whether they're Baháʼí

or Hindu or Muslim, like, I feel
like this is what I should be doing

because of my religious upbringing.

So, that's what we're trying to do.

Neil McPhedran: And Take a Leap, correct
me if I'm wrong, but it, it differs

from a lot of those other podcasts
you mentioned in that this one is

really more sort of student focused,
student led, student produced as well.

Do I have that right?

Heather Bigley: Yeah.

So the students.

I mean, we kind of said to the students,
do you have any ideas for podcasts?

And they, they were like,
yeah, we have some ideas.

And they went through like a year
long pitch process where, you know,

again, I would look over documents
and I would make suggestions, but

they put the documents together,
they pitched to our administration,

they created the pilots, you know, so
it really was them taking the lead.

I have to say, I have to point
out, because I know this is

different different places, but
they're paid for that work, right?

Like we have hired them to do that thing.

Now, BYU has tons of
students who do podcasts.

We have tons of faculty who do podcasts
that are not under the BYU Radio

rubric, and sometimes we reach out to
them and say, we'd love to have your

show on our network, or we'd love to
have your show on our linear station.

For years, there was this great podcast
called The Non-Member Project, and it

was a woman who was not Mormon, who was
doing her undergrad here at BYU, and she

was interviewing all the other people who
were not Mormon at BYU and saying, let's

be friends because it's weird here, right?

Like, you know, there's all kinds
of cultural things that we have

to get used to and we came here
for a reason, but there's this

culture shock we're going through.

A great project, but
not part of BYU Radio.

She was just doing that on her own with
resources at BYU on campus, main campus.

So a lot of that exists outside
of our net, if you will.

Jennifer-Lee: I love the fact that
you know that though, because a lot

of the times when Neil and I talk to
a lot of universities, they actually

are shocked how many podcasts that
like are actually going on and they

said, oh, you brought our attention
because Neil has HigherEdPods.com.

Neil McPhedran: We, we've actually
introduced, Jen and I through this

podcast, have introduced multiple
on campus podcasts to each other

who haven't known each other.

Like, we interviewed two different
Yale podcasts and they didn't know

each other and we introduced them.

Heather Bigley: That's really crazy.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, granted,
universities are massive and

departments tend to silo, right?

That happens all the time.

But at the same time, I think I, I
mean, I remember 10 years ago thinking,

oh, this is the way we can get our
research out and to more people.

We have to learn how to present it, you
know, maybe to the average lay person, but

this is gonna be exciting for academia.

So I guess we should just be
expecting that there are professors

everywhere with a microphone.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, absolutely.

So can other podcasters on campus
who aren't part of the BYU Radio

network, can they access the resources?

Like, for example, the studio
you're sitting in and we, we

sort of talked about off the top.

Heather Bigley: So when we made this
pivot three years ago, we did, I mean,

the reason we know who these podcasters
are is that we started going to these

other podcasters and saying, I mean, often
these other podcasters had huge audiences

that we didn't necessarily have, or some
of our shows didn't necessarily have.

And we were like, let's see
if we can work something out

where you could come in here.

And we've actually done projects and kind
of collaborations where we bring people in

and they use our studios and, or they use
some of our students to accomplish things.

But I would say for the most
part, that's not happening.

They are either, you know, with a
USB mic in their office or they've

created enough of a presence for
themselves that they're getting some

kind of funding or support from their
departments to do what they're doing.

But you know, that's a tricky thing.

I was just listening to your, your
episode about, I forget her name,

but the woman who made sure her
podcast was her LLC and that like

could go with her when she changed.

Jennifer-Lee: Sarah Holton.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Heather Bigley: Yeah.

I was just listening to that and
I was like, yeah, I can see why

that would be really important.

Like, this is mine.

It is not yours.

And I'll be able to travel with it.

And do with it what I will.

Neil McPhedran: It doesn't mean
it wouldn't preclude someone like

that from still getting access to
some of the on-campus resources.

I just think there's such an opportunity
for struggling college radio, which I

think we see research, and we know that
there's a struggle there, to collab more

with podcasters and to open up that.

Typically, those are amazing spaces.

Typically, like there's an
investment in studios and equipment

and walls and all that kind of
stuff you have to put in there.

So I just feel like it's such a great
opportunity that I think, we've come

across some that are doing a really good
job at it, and then others it sort of

seems like it's such a great opportunity.

But I would encourage anyone
listening to go check out what BYU

Radio is doing 'cause I think it's
a great example of what to aim for.

Heather Bigley: I totally agree.

For instance, I taught for a while at
Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff.

I know that their radio is
primarily like student led.

I was like, what would it mean if
they just went to the professors on

campus and said, you know, can you
get us a 52, 50 cut of this or can

you get us a 28 minute cut of this
and we'll play it every week for you?

That might be a really great way to bring
in the local community to listen to all

these professors who are an excellent
resource, who are experts in their field.

Like how amazing.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

Or the academic podcast that's already
producing great content about the

teams and all that kind of stuff.

Like it just sort of seems like there's
such a good opportunity there and whatnot.

Heather, you were one of the
presenters at the Higher Ed PodCon,

and your presentation really leaned
into this student led production.

So maybe we can get
into that a little bit.

Some of the challenges around student led
production and sort of navigating that.

How are you set up?

I mean, you talked a bit about it already.

I think that's pretty unique in your
oversight, but maybe you can sort

of tell us a little bit more about
how you've structured the process.

Heather Bigley: Yeah, so one of the
things that's important is that the

student podcast has access to all the
resources of the regular shows here.

So they have access to like Asana
and Slack, and we use Riverside, and

they can schedule all the studios.

In fact, we just went through this
massive renovation of our studios.

My students have been in those
new studios more than I have

been with any of my other shows.

And I'm always like slightly jealous,
like, wow, you guys look amazing.

You have great lighting now.

So they have access to all of that stuff.

And once we've trained them on how to
use all of that stuff, for instance,

that new studio requires a board
operator and a camera operator.

They schedule that just like I would
schedule that for any of my other shows.

So they have access to all of that stuff.

And that has been really important.

And again, my main thing is to
go through and sort of do some

training on, let's lead with
this, and then we'll put this in.

Or, you know, this is interesting,
but I think that it might lose,

just like some basic editing.

Like, we're not gonna keep everything,
we're gonna try to keep this under

25 minutes, making choices like that.

So once, you know, I'm constantly
there, but I'm also pretty much like

once I feel like people are trained,
I'm in a position of let me know

if there's something I can solve.

Otherwise I trust that you're
doing, doing the job, you know?

And I do occasionally pop in and
say, hey, I don't see this file.

Like, is this file been uploaded
to the distribution network?

Like, can you let me know about that?

I do some spot checking, but
they're doing all of it, and I

think that's really important.

I think there's one thing, like
in our culture, in Mormon culture,

we say a lot that our youth are
like the best and the brightest.

Not just like Mormon youth, but like youth
today, they're the best and the brightest.

They're amazing.

They are so important, and I
think if we can get out of their

way and let them do the things,
we'll actually see that happening.

We'll actually see that they are
the best and the brightest, so.

Neil McPhedran: I like that.

So more high touch upfront training,
but once you feel like they've got

their training wheels off, it's really
get out of the way and spot check.

But let them really, like back to what I
was calling it student led, and you called

it student led, like truly student led.

Jennifer-Lee: And I just find it really
fascinating that they're excited about

a studio because I feel like nowadays
of TikTokers and a lot of podcasts, like

we're doing a virtual podcast today, that
there is so much content, especially from

the younger generation that is generated
at home in your bathroom, in your bedroom.

It's a totally different way that
they're like, oh, I wanna go into a

studio, because I feel like they'd
be like, oh, that's so old school.

Heather Bigley: Yeah.

When we pitched the show, one of the
things the students wanted to make

clear was, yes, of course we're making a
podcast, but we are social media forward,

so we wanna make content that's gonna
play on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube

and that people are gonna see it and
maybe they don't come see the podcast.

Maybe that's too big of a jump,
but they're gonna, they're gonna

come in contact with us there.

And so, yes, they are very much
like, the two students we have

right now as hosts, they both have
like marketing and advertising

background and they're like, let me
at the Reels, I am ready to produce.

And that's, I would say that's what
they're most actually excited about

is like, let's, we're gonna go down
on campus, or we're gonna go over

to UVU, or we're gonna go up to
Salt Lake, or we're gonna do a reel.

Where we do this, you know, so.

And it's really funny being in meetings
with students because I will sometimes

say, oh, have you thought about this?

You know, based on my own old
lady scrolling of my Instagram

feed, like, this is really funny.

Wouldn't you love to
do something like that?

And they just kind of nod and
they're like, that's a great idea.

Long pause.

And I'm like, okay.

Jennifer-Lee: I think that's sometimes
too, when we are doing podcasts,

everyone gets stuck on the listen
factor, but there's so much more.

If you drive an audience to your TikTok
or your Instagram or whatever because

you've got great content and it looks
like you have a podcast, it doesn't really

matter if you're getting like thousands
of views on your TikToks versus not many

views on your actual podcast because
again, it depends what you're wanting it.

It's a neat way of how
they think about it.

That's why I'm always like, I,
I'm not great at social media.

I really need to just hire someone
that's really young that just gets it.

Heather Bigley: Yeah.

Neil McPhedran: I think
that's the way though.

You have to think about it though now.

Like for me, doing this for years and
doing both, the social media and then

the, the podcast, I feel like I've had a
reframe in the last six months of thinking

that the podcast is the whole thing.

It's not produce a long form piece
of content and then spin off a few

shorter pieces of content to try to get
people back to the long form content.

It's thinking about the
whole, the whole thing.

There's gonna be a chunk of your
audience, as you so well said, Heather,

that is going to just consume the
Reels and then there's gonna be a

chunk of the audience that is just
gonna be consuming the long form.

And then there's gonna
be a hybrid of the two.

And I think we gotta think about
that just like we think about the

podcast is gonna live on Spotify,
Apple, YouTube, et cetera, et cetera.

I've now been thinking about that
and it's on Instagram and it's on

Facebook, and it's on TikTok and you
know, so on and so forth, and I think

that's just native to those students.

That's, that, to me, that
was like ah-ha moment.

Heather Bigley: Right, right.

Well, and it changes then of course,
what kind of reel we make, because

now, instead of making Reels, and I
think a lot of people know this now,

but this was an ah-ha moment for me,
instead of making a Reel that says,

and we'll tell you the cool thing, if
you go listen to the podcast, they're

just like, hey, here's the cool thing.

Isn't that cool?

Thanks.

See you later.

And so that kind of thinking about the
Reel is really like what you'll see

on their Instagram and their TikTok.

They're, you know, what's interesting
about the social media is they have,

like, we wanna do the funny stuff
and so they do the funny stuff.

And then we also have like, well, BYU
Radio also is invested in, we have what

we call like a, a values scale where
we say, yes, we want stuff to be like

clean where, you know, it's clean.

That's, that's like the
bare minimum for us.

But then somewhere in the middle of
that value scale is, we're talking

to people about important values
that make their lives better.

So what is the important value?

Is it, oh, I learned that it's important
to work with other community members in

order to get this project off the ground.

And regardless of what our different,
you know, whether you are a secular

humanist or you are Baháʼí, or you
are Jewish, we're all gonna work

together and we're gonna do this thing.

Like that should show up in
the Reels, right, as well.

So the Reels, I hope it all comes
together and makes sense as a piece.

Like, you know, here we are being funny
and this is a funny thing for our hosts,

but also here's an important thing
that our guest taught us that we're

gonna take forward from this moment.

Neil McPhedran: Great.

What else did you, because you did a
whole presentation about this at PodCon.

Not to put you on the spot,
it was months ago you did it.

But anything else that was in
there that you could share with the

audience that they are producing
a student led or thinking about

producing a student led podcast?

'Cause there's some great nuggets
that you had shared back in July.

Heather Bigley: Um, you know
the thing I'm, I want to answer

that question, but I can't.

I think what I can answer is the
thing that stuck in my brain is the

stuff I learned from the other people
who are doing student podcasting.

So I can't remember her name, but she
was at Stanford and one of the things

she talked about was like, yeah, my
students are coming, doing a podcast.

How can we interface with all
the other students doing podcasts

and how can we build community
there and support each other?

And maybe that'll lead to networking
that gets us more listeners and maybe

it'll just lead to everyone's feeling
supported and solving problems together.

And that's something that I brought
back and was like, yeah, we should be

reaching out to the student podcast as
a Take a Leap team to sort of understand

where they are and what they're doing.

And now that I've said that out loud,
I'm actually gonna have to do it.

We had several meetings where I was
like, yeah, this is a good idea.

And then things got lost in the shuffle.

But, so that to me was really great.

And this idea of just making
sure everyone's trained.

That everyone knows how
to do everyone else's job.

When you get into the middle of the
semester, right, and midterms come up

and someone says, I have this Japanese
exam and I'm not gonna be able to

make it today, I need the other people
on the team to go, that's great.

I will do that thing that you
were supposed to do because

I have your skills as well.

So they all come in with different skills,
but we're hoping that over the course of

working together, they end up all knowing
how to do all the things, whether that's

editing in Premier, or whether that's
reaching out to guests or whatever it is.

Jennifer-Lee: I love it.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Jennifer-Lee: I feel like
you answered it all for us.

Neil McPhedran: I think that
was Stacy Peña from Stanford,

from the Knight-Hennessy group.

Uh, that's a great student
led podcast as well.

Any sort of last, uh.

Heather Bigley: I would say the one
question that stuck out to me in your

list was like, why is it important
to have a youth interfaith podcast?

And I would just say, religious freedom
is really important to us here at BYU.

Religious freedom is a scary
word for a lot of people.

I understand why that is, and how
that term has been used in the past.

But I would say, you know, it's
important to show our students

that they're not alone out there.

They can get together with other
people of other faiths and of

no faith and solve problems.

If we can teach them that through
this podcast and they can teach other

people that through this podcast,
then I think we've done something

that's really important for America.

Neil McPhedran: That's wonderful.

Jennifer-Lee: Very well put.

Neil McPhedran: This is great.

Thank you so much for
joining us today, Heather.

I think we covered a lot here and
I'm really impressed by what you

guys have created at BYU Radio.

I think there's a lot that
we can learn from that.

Jennifer-Lee: And we hope to see
you, we know it's not in Utah, but

we hope to see you in Cleveland.

Heather Bigley: Thank you so much.

I really appreciate you guys having me on.

I was really flattered
that you reached out.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you
so much for coming on.

Neil McPhedran: Well, Jen,
another great conversation.

I really enjoyed our chat with Heather.

They are just doing some really cool stuff
at BYU with the BYU Radio and I really

enjoyed digging into how the radio side
of it and they're using the studios has

really helped to springboard podcasting.

But also how when you go to that
resource, BYU Radio, yes, there's

the quote unquote radio shows, but
then podcasting is all a part of it

and it's one big entity of content.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

And it's a great studio that they have.

And of course they have many different
types of podcasts, and I really like

that it gives everybody a chance to
say what they wanna say or talk about

a topic that they wanna talk about.

Neil McPhedran: Right.

Yeah.

It's a voice for the campus, whether
it's faculty, students, whatnot, and

then how she explained, a voice for the
larger community that the BYU campus

is in, but then this larger voice for
outside, whether it's faith-based or not.

But it, I just really like how
they're using podcasting as such a

key component to, you know, localize
it, but then as well reach out to the

world with all these amazing things
that they're doing there and with

all their different, uh, podcasts.

Jennifer-Lee: And she's a great speaker.

Of course she spoke at
the Higher Ed PodCon.

And so we were lucky to have her back.

Well, actually first time on our podcast
it felt like she was on our podcast

'cause we met her at the conference.

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