Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to a live
recording of Continuing Studies,

a podcast for higher education
podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder
of Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee,
founder of JPod Creations.

Broadcasting is podcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you
higher ed podcasters out there, and

we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: Jen, we are fresh back
from the first inaugural Higher Ed PodCon.

Speaking of learning from each other.

Wow, that was incredible.

Amazing sharing of podcasting.

So much learning.

So much community forming.

It was fantastic.

I've had so many emails,
so many LinkedIn notes.

It's just been phenomenal.

Jennifer-Lee: I'm really
proud of you and the team.

I know it's something that you have been
working on for a very long time, and it

was really great to be there and do this
live interview, but I felt pretty proud.

I was sitting there as like, I
know the people that put this on.

Neil McPhedran: That's awesome.

Yeah, I mean the, the
conference was amazing.

This episode is quite special.

It was actually a lot fun to be on stage.

Yeah.

Long time coming.

And it was fun to be up on a
stage doing a live episode.

I mean, I've been involved with
live episodes before on the other

sort of production end, but this
is my first time recording a live

episode of a podcast up on a stage.

And we had almost 150 people
that we were speaking to.

And if you're curious, on this
one, we speak with Matt Abrahams

from Think Fast Talk Smart.

Matt is a professor at the Stanford
Graduate School of Business where he

teaches strategic communication and we've
been wanting to have him on for a while.

And what better way to do it than to
have him on live in front of an audience.

So this was a really cool episode.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, it makes
me wanna do more live's too.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, me too.

I, I did come outta that
feeling the same way.

Like, we should do more, do more live.

I liked it.

It was fun.

Jennifer-Lee: So, let's get into it.

Gregg Oldring: So we have, for us today,
the hosts Neil McPhedran and Jennifer-Lee

here to interview and
record as an episode.

Our keynote today has had
215 episodes over five years.

68 million plays, 2,600,000 followers.

It's the number one careers
podcast in 125 countries.

The host of Think Fast Talk Smart,
Stanford GSB Lecturer, Matt Abrahams.

Jennifer-Lee: Hello.

Matt Abrahams: Hello.

Neil McPhedran: Hello, Matt.

Matt Abrahams: Hello.

Neil McPhedran: Matt, are
you ready to get started?

Matt Abrahams: Let's get started.

Yes.

Neil McPhedran: Let's go.

Matt Abrahams: That's an inside joke.

Yes.

Jennifer-Lee: I am not part of it,
so I don't know what's going on.

Neil McPhedran: Let's start with why
did you launch Think Fast, Talk Smart?

Matt Abrahams: Well first
thank you all for being here.

Some of us had quite the time to get
here and I appreciate people being here.

So Think Fast, Talk Smart
started as an experiment.

I lectured Stanford's Business School.

I'd been there probably five or six
years, and I had done a talk, and

the whole story behind the talk is
interesting in and of itself, that

ended up doing pretty well on YouTube.

As a result, the school
marketing comms team at the GSB

wanted to get into podcasting.

They'd never really done podcasting.

They'd taken classes and edited
them and called them podcasts,

but they really weren't.

And they said, hey, we want to try it.

And you know, when it comes to
trying it, we know that there's

an interest in communication
because of how this talk had done.

And I teach strategic communication.

An area of focus is around how
to manage anxiety and stress

and communication situations.

So they figured this guy probably won't
get too nervous if we have him do it.

And so they asked, do you want to try it?

And I said, sure.

And so it was really an experiment to
try new ways of getting information

from the school out to the world.

Jennifer-Lee: And has your vision
changed over the years of doing it,

or is it kind of still the same thing?

Matt Abrahams: Well, we learned a lot,
and I assume all of you working on

your podcast have learned a lot if you
listen to what the listeners tell you.

So we started thinking we were a
business podcast and then the world

told us we are a careers podcast.

And while similar, they're
slightly different.

So our direction changed a little bit
knowing that we really want to help people

hone and develop their communication.

We'd gotten a little tighter in
the way we approach each episode

in terms of length and things.

But our, our experimental
vision, I think is still there.

We still try lots of new things.

Our goal is to help people
and to have fun as we do it.

So we've stayed that course, but we've
become much more professional for sure.

We were total Motley crew when we started
and it was all MacGyvered with duct

tape and everything, and now we're a
little more professional as we do it.

Jennifer-Lee: I feel like
that's how we all started.

Neil McPhedran: So when you launched, what
sort of support did you get from the GSB

and how did you navigate getting attention
at the GSB sort of in a sea of egos?

Matt Abrahams: There are no egos.

What do you mean?

In academia, there are no egos.

Uh, at first, I didn't know what
I didn't know, so I thought we

were getting wonderful support.

They came to us and they
said, hey, we have this team.

We're gonna do this.

Let's go.

And then as we started growing,
it became very apparent that

we needed a lot more support.

Now mind you, we released our very first
episode in January of 2020, and six weeks

later, literally the world shut down.

And so that, we were actually canceled.

So the business school said, you
know, pandemic, we're shutting down.

No more podcast.

And we had done so much work.

We had six episodes in the can.

We released two on our first
week and then we were gonna go

week after, weekly after that.

And because we were shut down, or they
were shutting us down, and we were all

home bound, I said, what if you let
me keep it going and I'll manage it?

And they said, okay, why not?

And so my two high school boys and I
produced the podcast for six months

on my younger son's gaming computer.

And he would get pissed off whenever
I'd have to do an interview.

He'd be like, you're taking
away from my gaming time.

And my, and my older son knew
how to edit audio, so we had

no support for six months.

And you can hear it if you listen
to those old episodes, for sure.

If there was a silver lining in the
pandemic, people wanted to know, how

do we communicate in this new world?

People had a lot of time
to start listening because

there was nothing else to do.

So we actually saw a sharp increase in
our listenership through the pandemic.

And when we came back from it and
we were still around, that's when

I started to negotiate with some
of the folks in marketing and

communications, and they saw the impact.

It is tricky to help people
understand the value of podcasting.

I think today people see it
regardless of your political views.

I think this most recent presidential
campaign help people see the value

of podcasts and the relationship that
podcasters have with their listeners.

So it was less difficult as
podcasting became more prominent.

What was more difficult is
we needed more resources.

As we grew it cost us more money
to do the things we wanted to do.

Jennifer-Lee: And obviously you're
really good at getting people to work

and using any of your resources around
you, like your children, but maybe if

we don't have children, how do we, you
know, when we're first starting out,

maximize people around us to help us?

Because as you know,
they take a lot of time.

You said sometimes money.

They're a lot of work.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Podcasts certainly are a lot of work.

I don't have to explain
that to people here.

So I leverage, uh, this summer I have six
interns from, they are undergraduates,

some from Stanford and some elsewhere.

So anybody who's
interested, we put to work.

And that's a lot of fun.

As a teacher, I just like working
with people, learning from

people, helping people learn.

So we have always had volunteers,
people who we pay, not a lot of money,

who just want to get the experience.

Any of you who are on faculty,
writing letters of recommendation

is a great incentive for students.

And students like being able to put
on their resume that they worked

on a show that contributed value.

And I think it helps differentiate them.

So leveraging lots of resources.

Finding ways to collaborate with others
at the university, talking to the folks in

marketing communications and their teams.

They have a lot of people who are great
at social media and other things, and

they're always looking for content.

One of the things that we spend a
lot of time thinking about is how

do we slice and dice our content and
what can we do to make it one, to

help us, but also to help others.

So there are lots of ways to get
people connected and involved.

Neil McPhedran: So let's talk about
some of that growth and global

reach that Gregg shared with us.

Was there a tipping point?

Was there sort of a point where you,
I mean, obviously you started in the

first episode, had a few downloads and
a few listens, and here we are today.

What was that tipping point?

Can you point to anything along the way?

Matt Abrahams: You know, I've
reflected on this for a long time.

I'm not exactly sure.

I know the pandemic helped, but
we somehow, the appetite for

the topic, I think is really,
is one of the big reasons.

We are very short bite
size, 20 minute episodes.

Every episode the goal is that
somebody can finish listening

and apply something right away.

I think it is the applied
nature of it that really helped.

But I really can't say this
happened on this date and

that's where we really exploded.

I just think it's, we always
encourage people to share and to

let others know about the show,
but it's really hard to tell.

And as Neil knows, Neil helps me produce
the show, every time I think a show's

gonna be really bad, it does really well.

And so I'm not really good at
understanding that kind of thing.

So we just are riding the wave.

Jennifer-Lee: And because you've had
such huge growth, and congratulations on

that and the number one careers podcast.

That's amazing.

You're now moving the show.

You've just recently done this.

You're now independent from GSB.

What was your decision around that?

Why did you do that?

Matt Abrahams: So we, in September, it
will be a year as an independent podcast.

If you would've asked me at my age,
would I be a social media entrepreneur,

I would've said, you're crazy.

But apparently I am now.

The problem was this, all
of us who work in academic

institutions, things move slowly.

And we, podcasting does not.

And so we were constantly
running up against issues.

It was, I call it a conscious uncoupling.

The business school was very kind.

We negotiated a separation.

We are working very carefully
and closely, hand in hand.

They are just not paying the bills.

We are now paying the bills.

We're still supporting them,
and they still support us.

So it's actually the best of both worlds.

We can move with the speed with
which we need to move, we can

make decisions more quickly.

They still get the benefit of us helping
bring eyeballs and ears to content.

So I think everybody's very
happy with how it's come out.

Jennifer-Lee: That's great.

Something else that you've started
adding, which I know there's a lot

of conversations at every conference
about this, video to podcast.

Now you're doing video.

Again, why?

Because that's more work, more resources.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Video is expensive, and for me, what's
important is high quality video.

It's where podcasting is going.

YouTube is the biggest discovery engine.

I believe YouTube will very much
lead where podcasting is going.

Spotify and others are certainly involved
in it, and so we're moving towards it.

It's harder to edit.

You have to think differently as
a host and how you interact with

people when people can see it.

But I actually like it.

It's fun.

We get to do some more creative things
and it certainly allows us to do more on

social, which has been very helpful to us.

So we're slowly there.

Not every episode we do is video.

We are getting more and more to that
point, and we've made some recent

decisions to really lean into it.

The biggest challenge is cost and
venue and figuring out how to do that.

Neil McPhedran: So what's
your strategy then for video?

Produce full episodes, and then
are you producing shorts and clips?

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

So we record in video, we use Squadcast.

Some of you use Riverside,
use Zoom, whatever.

If I can, if the guest is local or
I'm proximal to them, we'll actually

go into a real studio and do it.

We record it on video,
edit it in Descript.

We create an audio version of the podcast.

That audio version then serves as the
guide for editing the video version.

And then we clip and cut, and we're
trying to get very creative with that

and the folks who do that work for
us are in the room, so they can give

you more input on how they do it.

But it just takes more time now.

We have to post across all the
different platforms and then when

you post, you have to respond to
people who respond to your posts.

So there's this whole machinery that
you have to build to make it work.

But it's been fun and I love
engaging with our listeners.

There's nothing more satisfying to me
than when a listener will write and say

how the podcast has impacted their lives.

'Cause that's really why we do it.

For four and a half years, we were
non-profit and we're not making any money.

We're barely covering our costs now.

So we do it to help people.

And so video is another way of
reaching out to these folks.

Jennifer-Lee: And whether it's recording
in a studio or recording virtually,

obviously there's a lot of challenges
to video to make it look professional

and polished, and you always wanna make
sure you have good sound regardless.

So for people thinking in this room,
hey, I don't have video yet to my

podcast, but I should probably do it.

What do you think the
advantages are of it and why?

Matt Abrahams: Well, certainly a
disadvantage is people get to see

this, and I can't tell you the number
of people say, oh, you don't look

the way I thought you did, or would.

So there are many advantages.

One I think is people
are more engaged by it.

We live in a world where attention
is our most precious commodity,

and video draws more attention.

And so I think that's one.

Two, you can do some really
interesting things with video.

You can cut in other video,
you can put in animations in

ways that you can't with audio.

And what's important to me is the
educational aspect of what we do.

There are just more tools in
the toolkit when you have video.

So it, it opens it up to help
us achieve our goal more.

And I mean, bottom line is it's where
all of the providers want you to be.

So you're gonna get more love.

I can tell you very specifically that
we have been told by some platforms that

if you're aren't on video, if you're
audio only, you're not gonna get the

love that will help you expand and reach.

So it is in their best interest
to push video and therefore

we're playing that game.

Neil McPhedran: So let's
talk about what's next.

What are you and the team focused on?

What new channels, innovations,
what's on the horizon?

Matt Abrahams: So I've been reflecting
a lot about AI and its impact on

everything, but podcasting in particular.

And I am convinced, and I would
love to have a discussion and debate

with any of you, 'cause I'm really
trying to formulate these opinions.

I think the role of podcasting
and providing content is

a ice cube that's melting.

I think that creating
content is now commoditized.

The value I believe we bring is
in curation and in community.

And where we are taking our podcast is
more, we're still gonna release, we're

gonna do everything we've been doing,
but I really wanna focus on curating

content, helping the listeners who've
chosen to listen to us find the content

that's important and relevant to them.

And then build a community
where like-minded people can

come together and interact.

I really think just putting out
content is, we're on a cliff.

I think there's so many places
and so many other ways that

people can get content now.

What we have to bring is the
creativity and the curation and the

community that breeds connection
to really make the difference.

So we are really focusing on that.

We're building out a community hub
where people will be able to access it.

And when I say community,
I wanna be very clear.

I'm not talking about a premium offering
where you get to listen to more content

without ads or anything like that.

That's important.

And we have one of those.

But I'm talking about a place where
people can come together and interact.

I'll give you a few ideas.

We have a lot of guests on who have books.

We're gonna start hosting
book clubs in our community.

We have people who are very
interested in very specific skills

that we cover in our podcast.

We're gonna have threads and channels
where people can meet with others,

some will mediate, some we won't.

We might offer courses.

The whole idea is to bring people
together where they can interact.

That's what makes what I think all
of us do special, and it builds a

moat around the ubiquity of content
creation that AI has now allowed for.

So that's where we're headed, and
I'm excited about it because I

think we can really help people
in a deeper, more connected way.

Jennifer-Lee: And that authentic
communication connection is something

that I don't think anyone can replace.

But that being said,
you did touch upon AI.

Are there other things as higher
ed podcasters that we should be

thinking about in the next two years
or trying or experimenting with?

Matt Abrahams: I would love to hear
from all of you, 'cause I'm still

trying to figure this thing out.

We certainly leverage
AI in the work we do.

It helps me create the questions I ask.

It helps me find guests.

I know for sure it helps us create
some of our social posts we create

with Canva and AI, we put together
things that our audience is digesting

and liking much better than what
we used to do because of AI.

I would love to hear from all
of you how you see using AI.

We're still playing with it
and trying to figure it out.

I know that because we have so much
content out there that we've been

able to create our own chat bot.

So we're gonna release a chat bot
soon where we've ingested all of

our episodes, talks and writings
from my guests and that I've done.

And you can actually go now and
query the podcast in essence.

So if you're somebody who has
a job interview coming up,

you can go to our chat bot.

We're calling it Chat Matt.

I wanted Matt GPT, but
I couldn't get the URL.

You can go type it in and you'll
get a response from the collective

learnings of the podcast, and it'll
also spit out the episodes that it

drew from to give you that answer.

So it's a way of driving
more listens as well.

I'd love to hear how others are using it.

Neil McPhedran: What
about other languages?

Are you exploring that?

Matt Abrahams: It's so funny.

He's asking questions
he knows the answers to.

Uh, yes, so we have quite a global reach.

We have many more people who listen to
us outside the US than inside the US.

And we are exploring
translating the podcast.

First audio, and then we
might explore doing video.

We're looking to do
Hindi and Spanish first.

Primarily because we know we have
large audiences in those regions,

and the tools that we're looking to
use are better in those languages

than some of the other languages
where we do well internationally.

It's exciting.

We have worries about translation.

We don't want to cannibalize our English
language channel, so we're trying

to be creative on how we do this.

But we think we can help
more people if we translate.

And of course, for what we do,
our topic is communication.

We have to be very sensitive to
the cultural differences and norms.

We don't want to imply that the way
we do it here in the US is the right

way to do it in other cultures.

So there are a lot of issues at play.

I'm really excited.

It's really freaky if you've
not done this to hear your voice

speaking a different language.

So they'll actually take
your voice and do it.

I heard myself speak
German, French and Spanish.

They sent me the file.

Just bizarre.

Jennifer-Lee: So no one's dubbing you.

It's all you.

Matt Abrahams: Well, it's my voice
that they've programmed to do it.

Jennifer-Lee: Awesome.

Well, speaking of communication,
we're kind of having a meta moment

right now because we're interviewing
an amazing interviewer and I've been

wanting to interview for a long time.

Neil knows this, so I'm
very excited about this.

But what do you think
makes a great interview?

Matt Abrahams: Curiosity.

Curiosity and listening deeply,
and combining those two.

If there's anything that I have really
worked on to help, I really work on

paraphrasing and trying to take what
the person has said, digest it, and then

share it in a way that helps, I hope,
drive home for people the key point.

And then connecting.

So I think it's, it's about
listening, being curious and

paraphrasing, and that's what I
really try to do as I interview folks.

And editing helps.

Let's face it.

You know, people say, Matt,
you're so fluent in everything.

And I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of
editing that's going on behind the scenes.

Neil McPhedran: Any rituals, little
techniques that you can share with the

audience here when they're interviewing?

Matt Abrahams: What are
you trying to get at there?

Jennifer-Lee: The secrets.

Matt Abrahams: So I do a few things.

One, everybody who helps me who's
in this room knows I'm perpetually

late, so they are often sitting on the
call with a guest before I show up.

One of the reasons I'm late is I always
warm up before I do an interview.

For me, doing interviews are very
exciting, but they're draining because

I'm super focused on what's going on.

So I warm up.

I, I say a tongue twister multiple times
just to get my mouth and voice going.

And I really take some deep breaths
and do some things to really help.

So there is a ritual that I go through.

I, I'm superstitious and ritual bound,
so I make sure to do those things.

And I always challenge myself.

We always record the
tease at the beginning.

The way our show starts is I start
hopefully with something provocative,

and then I introduce the guest,
and I, I always challenge myself.

To me, it's a game.

What's the tease going to be?

So in the interview, I'm
constantly thinking, what's this

one thing that will get people
excited to listen to the episode?

So that's part of my ritual as well,
is I'm always playing this game.

What is it that I'm gonna tease?

And so those are the kind of
things that help me keep focused.

Jennifer-Lee: Love it.

We're getting trade secrets
right here, right now.

So I've interviewed a lot of people
and sometimes this happens, not

in this interview, but sometimes
you have an interview that

goes sideways or lacks energy.

So how do you as the interviewer, kind
of take control and make it a better one?

Matt Abrahams: No offense to
anybody in the room, but academics

can be dry sometimes, and so
trying to make it more exciting.

My trick is I really try to, uh, get
people to think about how what they're

talking about has direct application.

So what does this mean?

How has this played out in your life?

Getting people to tell stories,
uh, and inviting them to

tell stories I work on a lot.

All my interviews, people know the
questions in advance to help them be

focused, and then I tell them these
are just starting points, so they

come prepared, which helps as well.

But there are times where I'm in the
midst of somebody's answering for way too

long, and I'm just thinking, we're gonna
cut this part, we're gonna cut that part.

And I actually, well, the next question,
knowing that I will have eliminated the

previous answer, can to the person feel
very abrupt, because I know we're just

gonna get rid of everything they've said.

So it can be hard.

Neil McPhedran: So speaking of preparing
your interviews, you end all your

episodes with three of the same questions.

So we have tweaked your three questions to
be focused on podcasting instead instead

communication, 'cause that's what you do.

Matt Abrahams: Before you ask the
questions, Neil, we determined early

on because we were running on a
shoestring, that we would want to

reuse our content as much as possible.

And so we built in, and this
is just a best practice that

we have really benefited from.

So those of you starting things, I
might encourage you to think about this.

We built in that we ask similar questions
at the end of every episode, and we

have gotten a tremendous amount of
leverage out of that because we can

then slice and dice our episodes and
reuse content from different places.

So there are lots of things.

You create a lot of content and
we, I think, have done a pretty

good job of thinking about how can
we reuse that content in different

ways, creating infographics.

Now we're really working on
playlists that are thematic.

Once you have enough episodes, you
can start doing things like that.

So I encourage everybody to think
about this content you have as a

warehouse of content that you can then
combine in lots of different ways.

So it's not an accident that we have,
you know, 215 episodes with people

answering the same three questions.

That was very purposeful.

And in a world where content is so
important, creating ways to mix and match

I think has been really helpful for us.

Neil McPhedran: So you kind of
just answered the first question.

Matt Abrahams: Oh, okay.

Well, very good.

Neil McPhedran: But, the, the key
part to the question though is if you

were to capture the best podcasting
advice you've ever received in a

single sentence, what would it be?

Matt Abrahams: It's all
about your audience.

You are simply a, a mouthpiece
and ears for your audience.

So everything I do, I'm always thinking
about how will this help the audience?

What would the audience want to know?

I often wanna know a lot of things,
some of which is similar to what

my audience wants, but I really try
to focus on how the audience will

get value, and I'm always thinking
of myself from their perspective.

One of the things we did, when was that?

About two, two and a half years ago.

Neil McPhedran: This is
more than one sentence.

Matt Abrahams: I know.

Okay.

Period.

I'm an academic who teaches
communication, this is what I do.

I talk, people pay me to talk.

It's amazing.

We did a thorough audience analysis.

We actually had a company
interview our audience.

We surveyed our audience and we
have a much better idea of who

they are and what's important
to them as a result of that.

And that really helped with
know your audience, which

was the one sentence answer.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, now I'm gonna
channel my best Matt Abrahams

and ask you who is a podcaster or
interviewer that you admire and why?

Matt Abrahams: I really like Terry Gross.

I think Terry Gross is
an amazing interviewer.

I like how it's very conversational,
how she's vulnerable, how she

expresses emotion and gets
others to express emotion.

Her interviews are very different
than the type of interviews I do.

Mine are just sort of very matter of
fact, but I really respect Terry Gross.

Jennifer-Lee: Good answer.

Neil McPhedran: Question number three.

What are the three ingredients that go
into a successful podcasting recipe?

Matt Abrahams: Teamwork.

Podcasting is, at least in
the way we do it as a team.

And I have assembled, I
work with an amazing team.

Thank you, Neil, and others.

So, teamwork, passion, and curiosity.

I'm gonna put those two together.

I am infinitely curious and very
passionate about what we do.

And while I am really poor at this,
I have always tried to surround

myself and I certainly have done this
with the team we work with, detail

oriented, being very detail oriented.

I am very bad at that, but you need to
be detail oriented to make this work.

So those would be the three ingredients
for sure that help, from my perspective.

Jennifer-Lee: Was that
answer short enough for you?

Neil McPhedran: Yep.

Jennifer-Lee: Well,
thank you so much, Matt.

We're gonna actually open up the
questions to you, the audience,

because I know that you probably
have some burning questions for Matt.

So let's get started.

Audience Member 1: Can you speak a little
bit more about the specifics of how you

were gonna create the bank of answers
that you have queried the AI database?

Matt Abrahams: So.

I can only share the level
that I understand this at.

So one of the advantages of teaching
where I teach is we have amazing students.

In a class, some, I don't even
remember how this came up.

We were talking about AI and I said,
it would be so great if I could somehow

take all the information we have in my
podcast and share it through AI, and I

had a student come up afterwards and said,
oh, I can have that for you by tomorrow.

And I kid you not.

He did.

He has written a program, I don't know the
specifics of it, that allow us to simply

put in the URL of our episode and it will
within 20 minutes add it to this data bank

that he has and you can query against it.

I'm not sure what he coded it in.

I'm not sure what he did.

We're in the process of, it's
going to be beta launched to our

premium members in the next couple
weeks to get their feedback.

As with all AI, it can
do some silly things.

We're trying to, to learn
all those silly things.

There are companies that will do this
for you, they cost a lot of money.

Like I said, students, for
those of you who work with

students, they're very eager.

And we have two students who
are studying data science.

They came to me and said,
we'd love to be interns.

I said, well, we've got some
data science-y projects.

They got really excited because they
do problem sets that are, you know,

data sets that they don't care about.

And they're like, wow.

I mean, these are people
on the other end of this.

So we have this one woman
working for us that, she's

doing things we never imagined.

I mean, we're getting data on
what titles of our podcasts

do better than other titles.

What time of the month that we released
episodes, do they do better versus worse?

All that data exists.

We just didn't know what to do with it.

And you know, our students are helping.

So leverage students and
see if they can help.

And if you really want more information
about the AI, I can dig into it, but

I honestly don't know what he did.

Neil McPhedran: A key part of that
though is the transcripts and all

of the show notes and the metadata.

So we spend a lot of time developing
chapters and really good show notes

and very accurate transcripts.

So that's really important
'cause that feeds into the AI.

And when Matt says it goes to the webpage,
each episode has its own webpage with the

transcript and all of that data on there.

So that's really, really rich
data then that funnels into

that AI so they can pull it out.

So first and foremost, you gotta
give it the data, and that's where

we spend a lot of time making sure
it's accurate and it's all there.

Matt Abrahams: You see what I mean
about detail oriented, surround yourself

with the people who know the details.

Audience Member 2: Now, you mentioned
that you are working on creating curated

content through custom playlists.

Talk to me a little bit more about
that, how you're doing that, how

you're sharing that with your audience.

Matt Abrahams: Again, I have
interns who are doing it.

They're really excited about it.

Across our many episodes, there are
certain themes and topics that we cover,

and we can see how they do in terms
of listens, plays, views, whatever

you're monitoring, and so we know that
there's an appetite for certain topics.

I'll give you an example.

We have done many episodes on
the fear of speaking in public.

A lot of people have that as a fear.

Those episodes do very well.

We have 6, 7, 8 of them.

We're putting them together in a playlist.

For our premium offering we have
a similar playlist, but I actually

put some additional content
on it so it becomes a lesson.

I wouldn't say it's a course, it's
a little lesson where I'll say,

listen to these three episodes.

Here's some specific things to listen for.

Here's how you might apply it.

That takes a little heavier lift,
and that's why it's part of our

premium offering where people have
to pay a little to get access to it.

But the normal playlists, we're
just combining them and so

we post them on our website.

And in Spotify and YouTube,
we've mirrored them.

So they have a name, they
have a different show.

Art.

We're starting to tell people about
them, and we are starting to monitor

how many people listen to them.

So we're practically tactically from
a numbers point of view, it's just

another way to get people to visit
your content, but to help people.

It really helps curate that
content in a meaningful way.

Audience Member 3: So since a lot of the
work you're talking about is going through

students, I'm always curious then, why
engage with the students to have them

all start their own podcasts so that
they can start thinking about how do we

bring guests on, start actually using
the work you're teaching them, uh, to do

that, help 'em get jobs and everything.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

So a couple of the people we've had help
us over the years have had podcasts.

And we're really excited about it.

And what's so funny to me is a couple of
them will come and say, I wanna see how a

real professional podcast is put together.

And I laugh and I say, this is not
professional, this is, this is not.

And they soon see that.

Some come from a podcasting
background, which is great.

Others are interested
in creating podcasts.

We help them.

The team has certainly mentored some
of the students that have helped us.

Our original founding executive
producer did that a lot.

Her name was Jenny Luna.

She really helped, and we are
doing that today with some of ours.

So yes, we try to encourage podcasting
and encourage them to do it.

The other thing I would encourage all
of you to do, and I have just started

doing this at Stanford, is reaching
out to the student community who are

creators and have their own podcasts, and
we're starting to bring people together

and to really leverage each

Matt Abrahams: other.

We have a student who is one of the
senior participants in Mr. Beast's group.

I mean, this guy does all of
their partnerships for Mr. Beast.

He's a 26-year-old MBA student,
and I met with him and he's

giving us insight, I mean.

Mr. Beast, it's nuts.

The numbers, they're talking
in terms of views and stuff.

So harness in your communities, people
who are doing this and leverage.

When we pulled the podcast out from the
business school, I reached out to as many

podcasters as I could find very prominent
podcasters, and I have been amazed.

Everybody has been so
kind and collaborative.

No competition.

Everybody's just been really
helpful in giving insight.

It's fun to be around others
who do what we all do.

And reach out to that and help
encourage young folks, like you

said, to create their own podcasts.

I actually think they have the energy
and excitement for it for sure.

Yes.

Hi.

Audience Member 4: First of all,
thank you for your insights.

What are your ethical
conversations like with students

with regards to media and AI?

What are the questions
that they are asking?

What are the resources you're bringing in?

Who are you holding up as examples
of, look at these people for these

kinds of considerations or for
examples of what has been happening

in regards to ethics and AI?

Matt Abrahams: I probably need
to do more of that, to be honest.

So we definitely talk
about AI and the use of AI.

So when I teach, we have a lot of
conversations about AI, especially

when you teach strategic communication.

Our students take an ethics class,
and so I try to tap into what

they're talking about in ethics
and reinforce what they have there.

I share what I use AI for.

I share some of the challenges
that I have with AI.

I encourage them to really leverage
it as a tool to help, but to be very

mindful of where that content came from.

I mean, as creators, we are all
creating content, and I think

we deserve the respect and the
effort that that effort requires.

So I encourage them to do that,
and I fear that AI will reduce

people's ability to critically think.

And so I really encourage my students
to keep their critical thinking

skills sharp and to really evaluate
and judge what AI produces for them.

Jennifer-Lee: We have time
for one to two more questions.

Audience Member 5: What's the process,
'cause the fun note, you know, you've

got a popular podcast, so everybody and
their brother wants to be on it now.

So what's the criteria
of choosing your guests?

Matt Abrahams: That's a great question.

So one is, is it in alignment with
our theme and is there value that

the person can bring to the audience.

That's probably the number one thing.

Two is, is there some unique
perspective that the person brings?

You are right.

As we have gotten more popular,
I think at least 5 to 10 requests

come in sometimes per day for people
who have books and other things

that they want to be on the show.

And I just have a standard boilerplate
thing I send back to many of them.

I would say probably 80% of our guests
I solicit versus them coming to me.

Because there are certain themes
and ideas that we want to cover.

Believe me, it's a nice place to be
where people wanna be on the show.

'Cause I remember starting out and
having to beg people to be on the show.

So that has been nice.

But it has to add value to the audience.

I have to, I will personally wanna
learn from it and it has to be

some kind of unique perspective.

Those are the three criteria.

Jennifer-Lee: Okay.

So we're gonna go with the final question.

Audience Member 6: You
may hate this question.

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

Audience Member 6: When the ice
cube melts, what will you be doing?

Matt Abrahams: Ah.

So I love teaching and I'm curious.

So I'm gonna find, podcasting is, I mean,
for those of us who do this, it's amazing.

It scratches so many itches that I have.

I love to talk to really smart people.

I love to learn.

I'm incredibly curious, so I
will find other avenues for that.

I think there is always
a need to create content.

I just think it's how we engage that
content and how we bring value to people.

So I don't know what it'll be, but
it'll certainly be me asking questions

and trying to learn from people.

Jennifer-Lee: Well,
thank you so much, Matt.

We really appreciate it.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

I am, I'm happy to chat with all
of you and learn from all of you.

I want to hear what all
of you are up to for sure.

Neil McPhedran: Okay.

That's a wrap.

What a great conversation
we had with Matt.

I really enjoyed that.

Lots of fantastic insights for higher
education podcasters, no doubt.

Jennifer-Lee: And I just love
the live element because you

know, you can hear the audience
laughing, you can feel the audience.

It's different, like yes.

In the perfect world, the sound quality
might not be there, but I like the

whole live element versus studio.

So I thought it was great.

Neil McPhedran: Yes, all in all,
great trip, great conference.

Love this episode, and I'm so glad
that we decided to record live while we

were there and we got it all to work.

Jennifer-Lee: And hopefully we'll
be doing it again next year.

Maybe Chicago, maybe not.

Neil McPhedran: I think we're
gonna be going to a different

city, different university for
next year's Higher Ed PodCon.

That, that'll be decided over
the next few months, but yeah,

it was, but it was great.

Jennifer-Lee: Perfect.

Thank you so much for tuning into
the Continuous Studies podcast, our

very first live episode, a podcast
for higher education podcasters.

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