Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

[00:00:00] Jennifer: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters. In each episode, we talk to a university podcaster to ask some questions, get answers, and share tips and ideas about higher education podcasting.
[00:00:16] Hi, I'm Jennifer Lee. I'm a radio broadcaster and a podcaster.
[00:00:20] Neil: And I'm Neil McPhedran. I've come to podcasting after 25 years in the digital agency world. Together, we've hosted, executive produced, and launched seven and counting higher education podcasts.
[00:00:32] Please remember to follow Continuing Studies in your listening app of choice and drop us a rating and or a review, we'd love to hear your feedback. While you're at it, also join the University Podcaster Network on LinkedIn.
[00:00:51] Okay, Jen, so in this episode, we interview Jessica Hollihan of the Yale University Press Podcast. Jessica is marketing manager of the art and architecture books at Yale University Press, and she is one of the hosts of the press podcast. Now Jen, we touched on it a little bit, but Yale University Press has a really interesting mission.
[00:01:16] And the mission is, by publishing serious works that contribute to a global understanding of human affairs. Yale University Press aids in the discovery and dissemination of light & truth, which is a central purpose of Yale University. And the publications of the press are books and other materials that further scholarly investigation, advance interdisciplinary inquiry, stimulate public debate, educate both within and outside the classroom, and enhance cultural life.
[00:01:45] Jennifer: Over the years, the press has established an extraordinary array of partnerships with some leading museums, which you might have heard of including the Met in New York, the National Gallery of Art, the Art Institute of Chicago, the Philadelphia Museum of Art, and the National Gallery in London. So, so many great museums they're partnering with, I just think what they're doing is really neat.
[00:02:08] Neil: Yeah, Jen, this is actually a really interesting episode. I think one of the things for me is Jessica works with and represents these art and architecture books full of pictures and visuals and images and whatnot. And really, this is about taking visual books into this long running audio series. So, it's interesting how, like, you wouldn't think that talking about books with lots of pictures and visuals in an audio setting works, but it's really interesting what they've been doing with this podcast.
[00:02:36] Jennifer: Well, it's funny because a lot of people wouldn't think that would be a podcast topic, but You know, from my background in broadcasting, theater of the mind, baby, theater of the mind.
[00:02:46] Neil: You have a background in broadcasting?
[00:02:48] Jennifer: K, I'm leaving.
[00:02:49] Neil: No, no. The other thing interesting about this one is we actually get voices from both Jessica's producer and our producer Kylé on this episode. We all talk together.
[00:03:01] Jennifer: But hey, we could talk all day, Neil. Let's get into the interview.
[00:03:09] We're really excited to have you. I'm so glad that you responded back to my LinkedIn.
[00:03:14] Neil: So why don't you just tell us about yourself?
[00:03:17] Jessica: Sure. I'm so unused to being on this end of things.
[00:03:20] Neil: Yeah, don't worry about it.
[00:03:22] Jessica: I just keep thinking, like, what's my next question going to be for you guys? Um, so I have worked in publishing, book publishing, for an awfully long time at this point, starting when I was an undergraduate at Wesleyan University. I knew very little about book publishing. I didn't have any relatives who worked in book publishing or anything like that, but I was, you know, an avid reader, I was studying literature and so it felt like a natural fit, and indeed it was.
[00:03:49] I worked there for all four years of my undergraduate. They hired me full time after I graduated, and so I stayed for a while. I moved out to California, I worked at Stanford University Press and the University of California before moving back east. When I was hired at Yale University Press, I worked on the publicity campaigns from across the entire list, then after I'd been at the press for about seven years, I took the opportunity of kind of specializing and becoming the marketing manager, but only for the art and architecture books published by Yale University Press. It's one of the most respected publishers of art and architecture books globally and so it was a daunting opportunity, but one that I was excited about. And I've been doing that for more than a decade at this point.
[00:04:36] Neil: Great. So why don't you then tell us just a little bit about the Yale University Press podcast then?
[00:04:42] Jessica: Yeah, sure. So, about a decade ago, a former colleague of mine who is a crackerjack art book marketer, but who also had some history in broadcast was really interested in the possibility that we could have a Yale University Press podcast. You know, Yale University has an incredible broadcast studio, and so my colleague took it upon himself to get in touch with the broadcast studio and propose this. At that time, I don't exactly know how many Yale University podcasts had launched, but he wasn't the first person to suggest that a department at Yale do this and they were very receptive and welcoming.
[00:05:18] And so, he launched the Yale University Press podcast, and it was focused exclusively on non art and architecture books that we published. There was an understanding that those were going to lend themselves most naturally to a, you know, purely audio format. There was going to be no visual to show the beautiful art books and so we were going to focus on the rest of the list. And at some point, after he started doing that, I got interested because he really enjoyed doing it. And we started talking about the fact that of course we can talk about art and architecture books on a podcast, there's no reason we can't do that. And so, I, with zero background in broadcast anything or acting anything or, you know, I mean, I had spoken to people, but I'd never interviewed anybody said, well, I'll try it.
[00:06:06] So, that was about eight years ago. That first recording I did, so nervous, felt imposter syndrome, like crazy. You know, what am I doing in a studio? And I had just done a ton of preparation and it went pretty well, you know, and I thought maybe I can do this. And now eight years later, just last week recorded my 50th episode that'll go up sometime in the next few weeks and it's one of the favorite parts of my job.
[00:06:34] Neil: Congratulations. One of the inspiring things is how often we hear a similar story of I hadn't been in podcasting, or I didn't have a background in journalism or what not and I jumped in and it's now one of the favorite parts of my job.
[00:06:48] Jennifer: I love it too because I believe everybody has an inner broadcaster waiting to be unleashed so.
[00:06:53] Jessica: I love that idea. I don't know that I've necessarily found mine yet, but I'll keep looking.
[00:06:58] Jennifer: No, I think you have. I already can tell you; you have a few good qualities that I look for. Maybe I'll be hiring you out to a client soon. Your voice tone is so great and the cadence that you speak. And that's a lot of the things that we don't think about.
[00:07:10] And going back to your point of, can you put architecture books on audio? Yes, you can. It comes down to the skill set that you have. And if you're able to lead the audience through theater of the mind and be able to showcase what's in those books, but put an audio form a hundred percent.
[00:07:28] Jessica: Thank you. I hope this doesn't] sound too hokey, but you know, working as I have in a university setting, and working at university presses has kept alive just the spirit of being a learner all the time in me. You know, I mean, every new book we publish that I interact with, whether or not I do a podcast episode on it, it gives me the opportunity to learn something new and that's fantastic. You know, it feels like a muscle that is very healthy to exercise. And so even [00:08:00] though it made me very nervous to think about interviewing people for a podcast, I was willing to do it, I think, because I thought, well, if I can learn about the houses that Frank Lloyd Wright built in the San Francisco Bay Area, I can maybe learn how to do a podcast.
[00:08:13] Neil: Yeah, the podcast has been around, as you mentioned, it's been around for a while. It's actually been around since 2007. So, it's actually quite a, quite an OG podcast.
[00:08:21] Jennifer: She's an OG of podcasting.
[00:08:24] Jessica: Yeah, and so those original...
[00:08:25] Neil: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:08:26] Jessica: The original, the earliest episodes were the ones that we outsourced, that we used a freelance podcaster named Chris Gondek, who didn't work for Yale University Press, but interviewed a lot of Yale University Press authors. I think it's been in house since '13 or '14.
[00:08:42] Neil: Great. Yeah. I like how you leave all that in the back catalog, that makes a lot of sense. Somewhat of a tension there, sort of in the podcast space of like, you pull that stuff down, you leave it in there. I'm a big believer of leaving your back catalog up, it's all evergreen content.
[00:08:55] You're one of the hosts. There's another host or other hosts as well for the podcast. Is that correct?
[00:09:01] Jessica: Correct. Yeah. My wonderful colleague, Claire Barnes talks to the authors of books that are not art and architecture related.
[00:09:06] Neil: That's great. So, you're so co hosts, but you're not on the same episodes. I like that idea. So, you can kind of focus on your realms of expertise.
[00:09:15] Jessica: Yeah, exactly. And that bears out too with, um, you know, other instances of blogging and other stuff on our social media platforms too, as I look after the art and architecture books, and she looks after the rest of the list.
[00:09:28] Jennifer: And because you've been podcasting for so long, who is your ideal audience for this podcast? Is it just everybody that loves art and architecture or is there a certain segment that you're going after?
[00:09:39] Jessica: Well, one of the things that's also been a wonderful learning curve is figuring out all of the ways that we can introduce at least individual episodes of our podcast to different audiences. Originally, this was and is still, I think, primarily seen as a marketing tool. We try to launch a podcast episode around the time of a book's publication, and it's part of our toolkit for introducing the book to the world. And so, in that sense, each individual episode is geared toward the audience for that book. Be it a book about political science or Roman architecture or whatever, because the publishing at Yale University Press is so broad and touches on so many topics, you know, we're always looking for ways to find audiences specific to the individual episodes.
[00:10:26] I was surprised and absolutely delighted to hear from an author back in gosh, maybe 2018, an author named Chanchal Dadlani, who had written a book about architecture in late Mughal India. And it was a very specific book, very scholarly, really wonderful. And so we recorded a podcast episode and I heard from her a couple of months later, and she said that she had heard from colleagues of hers, you know, at other universities, but who were teaching classes that touched on 18th century Indian architecture that they were using a link to the podcast in their syllabi.
[00:11:02] Neil: Hmm.
[00:11:03] Jessica: And that was the first time I'd heard something like that. It just thrilled me, you know, and then this summer I recorded a podcast with the co-editors and co-curators of an exhibition catalog that's on the Yale University press list for a show that is at Cooper Hewitt in New York about textile designer and weaver named Dorothy Liebes. And after we recorded that episode, I heard at some point from Cooper Hewitt and they asked if they could include, if I could send them the [00:11:30] file and if they could include that in the digital component of their exhibition. And so, finding ways to take apart the podcast into its constituent pieces and figure out how to bring each episode to its most appropriate audience is sort of an ongoing project and one that has lots of surprises.
[00:11:50] We're in the business of selling books and the podcast, like I said, is primarily a marketing tool. But we're also part of Yale University and I think any way that we can contribute to the scholarly mission of Yale University Press and Yale University to aid in the discovery and dissemination of light and truth as the mission statement goes, we will take those opportunities.
[00:12:13] Neil: It sounds like the podcast channel is one of the key components of the overall marketing mix. And it's just interesting how it's found its way into just all different types of audiences and connections.
[00:12:25] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, it's something that exists as a series, of course, and it's something that we can use individually which is really nice.
[00:12:33] Neil: Where do you see the podcast going here? What are some of the next steps with the podcast?
[00:12:39] Jessica: We have talked about the process for getting it up and running on YouTube, which seems like a no brainer in a lot of ways, but there are just a lot of moving pieces and logistical things that we need to work out. We have a YouTube channel and so getting a playlist of the podcast episodes is something that is next up for the podcast. One of the things that we're [00:13:00] talking about in that context is, since we will have the option of more of a visual element on that platform, what does that mean, especially for the art and architecture book episodes. We're trying to figure out what it makes sense to do and what we could reasonably maintain in terms of a visual element for the art book episodes.
[00:13:19] Neil: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting opportunity. I think some of the new features that the apps are adopting; at the bare minimum, you've got the Apple and Spotify and others that are adopting episode cover art, I mean, the type of books you're talking about are so much more there than just the story. There's things you probably want to like talk to and or point to and have people see as well.
[00:13:40] Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the things that's been kind of liberating about talking about art and architecture books on the podcast is that, well, in almost all cases, our art and architecture books are heavily illustrated. In most cases, it's only a subset of those images that we can then use in marketing the book, permissions issues with artists, estates and [00:14:00] licensing agencies and whatnot for other social media, for blogging, we kind of tailor our activity to the imagery that we have access to. And so, for the podcast, we haven't had those constraints, you know, we can talk about absolutely anything...
[00:14:13] Neil: Right.
[00:14:14] Jessica: ...which has been pretty wonderful. So, then going back and figuring out, well, okay, we talked about all these things, which of them do we actually have images that we can use to, uh, to illustrate?
[00:14:23] Jennifer: Yeah. Well, I was just like thinking of all the possibilities, but yeah, you got to make sure that you don't get sued if you're showing some images too. So, you guys have a lot of things to figure out. I really think what you guys are doing is amazing. Your podcast has gone on for so long. What do you think keeps a successful podcast alive?
[00:14:41] Jessica: Well, I mean, one of the most obvious answers maybe that occurs to me right off the top is just fresh material all the time. And because, you know, we publish hundreds of new books every year, often with authors that are brand new to Yale University Press, but sometimes not. In the, you know, eight years that I've been [00:15:00] doing this, I've had the opportunity to speak to a couple of authors more than once who have published more than one book with us, which is also fun. So, having new content all the time is key, obviously. And that is something that is just built into publishing.
[00:15:15] But, you know, becoming aware of your podcast and thinking about university podcasting as a thing, as a world, as a potential community, has kind of, uh, gotten me thinking about whether I need to figure out how to reach out to some of the other podcasters at Yale and just talk to them about their thoughts, or what they're doing or, you know, learn from each other.
[00:15:34] Neil: You are not alone in that. It's a common theme that comes up with different higher ed podcasters we talk to that they're not as connected into their fellow podcasters on campus. And I think it's something that there's been some talk how to find each other cross institutions. But especially in certain universities, just figuring out how to network a little bit better, I think would be beneficial for everyone. We work with three podcasts at Stanford, and it's funny how often I feel like I'm introducing some of my clients to other podcasters at Stanford, kind of a thing.
[00:16:11] Jessica: On the same campus?
[00:16:12] Neil: On the same campus.
[00:16:13] Jessica: No, I mean, you would be in the same boat at Yale if you went to introduce me to another podcaster.
[00:16:19] Neil: Yeah uh, you know, the higher education podcast landscape is definitely unique from a podcast that's monetized or a branded podcast per se. So, it's great for us to kind of find each other.
[00:16:31] So, going back to just talking about that fresh content. Curious, what's your process? So, obviously it's, as you mentioned, dictated by the ebb and the flow of your publishing calendar. But curious, how far do you plan ahead and how do you sort of pick and choose what you're going to focus on?
[00:16:46] Jessica: Yeah, that's a great question. And I wish I could say it was more of a science than it is. But as you said, I have more material than I can realistically cover on the podcast. And so, to some extent dictated by, um, by author interest in participating in it. I'm very happy to say that some authors are aware that we have a podcast as their book is nearing publication and have said, how do I participate in the Yale University Press podcast, which is wonderful. And we try not to say no.
[00:17:18] And then the Art and Architecture Publishing Program at Yale has publishing partnerships with a lot of museums all around the world, really, mostly in the U.S. and the U.K., and we collaborate with them in various ways on important exhibition catalogs that accompany their exhibitions. And so, one of the things that I try to be mindful of is to keep a balance of having our publishing partners, these museums, represented in the podcast and try and keep the variety as varied as it can be. Even within the art and architecture list, the kinds of things that we publish about is very wide ranging, but it's also true, like at most publishing houses, that we have some areas of specialty. And so, making sure that there aren't three podcasts in a year on a very similar topic is also usually a goal.
[00:18:08] Jennifer: So, how do you prep everybody, so the interviews are really interesting? You know, this is a great topic, don't get me wrong, but if you don't, uh, prep it in the right way, it could be a little, a little sleepy.
[00:18:20] Jessica: I mean, I have at this point kind of tailored that process as much as possible to the author. Some of the authors that I've had the pleasure of interviewing have significant experience being interviewed in other settings, appearing on different programming. Oftentimes those authors are pretty comfortable saying, you know, I've written this book, I know it up one side and down the other, let's have a fresh kind of conversation about this.
[00:18:47] Some of the authors that I've had the pleasure of interviewing have much less experience. And so, you know, I try to offer an extremely abbreviated kind of broadcast prep for them. You know, like we work out a series of topics that we're going to talk about. I don't ask the authors of the books to sort of hold forth on other areas of their expertise that aren't covered in the book. I don't ever want to wildly mislead a potential listener into thinking, oh, I should go buy this book, that was a really interesting podcast. And they buy the book and say, I don't understand this book at all.
[00:19:24] What I aspire to, not to say that I always achieve it, but is to kind of find a balance between a conversation that is reasonably interesting to the author that I'm talking to. That I'm allowing them to talk about their book in the way that only they can, but that they're doing it in an accessible enough way that a kind of general listenership could be interested in the conversation. But the authors don't feel like I'm taking all of the important parts of their argument out because they're too complicated or the important parts of their research out because it's too specific or anything like that.
[00:19:59] Neil: There's a fair amount of prep that you put into each of those episodes? Like just even in and of itself, like reading that entire book in advance and having that upfront conversation. But you're going to end up interviewing different levels of sophisticated interviewees. And so, I can imagine you got to be prepped for those that are going to venture off, as Jen was saying, sort of into higher cerebral areas that you want to pull them back and what not. Sounded to me that you were saying that being prepared up front, having a little bit of a conversation with your interviewee, not necessarily having it all sort of robotically laid out, but you're still able to have a conversation, and a lot of that's the prep up front.
[00:20:38] Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I now keep coming back, uh, to Chanchal Dadlani's book about late Mughal architecture you know, that's something that I had zero background in. And so, my, you know, my process there when I read the book, was not to feel like I was getting a full education in Mughal architecture. But I noted down, I don't know anything about this, but what I just read on page 79 is really interesting and let that guide my questions for her.
[00:21:04] Jennifer: I love it. And when you are looking back after the episodes have, uh, been done. Do the podcast metrics and analytics come into play or do you guys actually take a hard look at the analytics and say, hey, this episode was successful we'll do more like this.
[00:21:19] Jessica: We do look at the analytics, but to this point, we, that hasn't so much guided our selection process going forward. Partly because, as I mentioned, you know, certain podcast episodes have opportunities to reach larger audiences, um, that don't necessarily have to do with the topic that we cover, but have to do with the author having connections across her field and so professors put the podcast episode on their syllabi, or having a museum that's receptive to the idea of including that in the digital component of their exhibition. And, you know, the truth is that most of our podcasts get to about the [00:22:00] 2000 download benchmark, which, you know, we've been satisfied with. It's also true that the percentage of people who listened to the episode all the way through who have started it is often above 90.
[00:22:10] Jennifer: That's a lot. People can argue with me all day long, but if you're going to have 2, 000 people listening each episode, that is a dedicated audience. Sometimes we get so lost in the numbers, but also a lot of people can't even get to 2, 000 in an episode. So that is, it's a triumph.
[00:22:25] Jessica: And what's amazing too about the download metrics is that it's just not possible that the same people who are listening to a podcast about mid century textile designer are listening to a pod... Well, not that it's not possible, it seems very unlikely to me that it's not the same people downloading every episode. It's a rare person who would go out and buy every single book published by Yale University Press. We don't expect that, we don't market the books that way. It's not all the same audience. And so, the fact that we can, that's sort of a baseline number for us, and then there are many episodes that have multiples of downloads of that is just wonderful because I think we are reaching different audiences, which is exciting.
[00:23:06] Neil: Really interesting point to pause on for a second there, because obviously we want to build an audience, we want to have that audience come back for every single episode, and you know, you kind of build it. But your podcast is unique, but I also think that there's a lot of other university podcasters out there that can think this way as well too. That there's the show, the holistic show, but you're really looking in at those, at the episode level. And [00:23:30] some of those episodes work well on a syllabi, some of those episodes work into a certain museum's co-marketing efforts and whatnot. And so, I like how you're looking at it.
[00:23:41] I think that's one thing that we keep learning as we talk to other university podcasters actually, is just how to think about your podcast differently?
[00:23:49] Jessica: Yeah. You know, while you're absolutely right, we're not looking to monetize the podcast. I think another way that it's possible for it to be used is our editors who are trying to acquire the absolute best books. When they're talking to authors or agents or museum publishing partners, they can say, hey, you know, we have a podcast, we can offer your author the opportunity to participate in this.
[00:24:12] Neil: Great. Well, it's been a fantastic conversation. I want to respect your time here today.
[00:24:18] Jessica: And I've had a lovely time talking to you. It's honestly a little bit funny and kind of humbling to me to be considered a podcaster. But, uh, I like it.
[00:24:26] Jennifer: You are, you're a podcast expert. And I want to know this burning question that I have, and I don't know if you can answer it because I don't know if you can choose favorites. But do you have a favorite book that sticks out to you that you've talked about over your course of your podcast?
[00:24:43] Neil: Or a favorite episode we should tell people to tune into? I guess is another way to put it.
[00:24:47] Jessica: You know, there are some that stick out in my memory because they were unusual for other reasons than, you know, their excellence. Like for example, I had the opportunity a handful of years ago to have three different people on the podcast at the same time.
[00:25:05] And those people were a contemporary British painter, the artist who was the subject of the book and of the related exhibition at the Yale Center for British Art here at Yale up the street. The second person was the curator at the Yale Center for British Art who had put the show together. And the third person was a British journalist [00:25:30] and podcaster, Kathy Courtney, who for a time had been running a series of conversations with British individuals all across the society, and Eileen Hogan, the painter, had sat in on a number of the interviews and done preparatory sketches as these people were talking about their life story.
[00:25:52] And I had the opportunity to have all three of these people in the studio for a conversation, which, you know, I mean, it's not often that I actually get to talk to the artist who's the subject of the book, not least because many of them are no longer alive, but even when they are, that's, you know, they're not the person that wrote the book. So, we got to talk about the relationship between curator and a living artist as a show about artwork of that artist is being put together. We got to talk about this incredible process of her creating portrait, so the sitter for the portrait wasn't just sitting there, you know, trying not to fidget, whatever. They were telling stories about their childhood or telling stories about yesterday in their lives or whatever, and the ways that that informed the resulting portraits. I mean, it was a fantastic conversation, as many of them are.
[00:26:42] Neil: I like that.
[00:26:43] Jennifer: I feel like I could talk to you all day.
[00:26:44] Neil: I gotta check that episode.
[00:26:46] Jennifer: Yeah, I want to check out that episode. Uh, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been great, and we'd love to talk to you again. And other Yale University podcasts, so, if you do bump into anyone that does a podcast in Yale, we would love to talk to them.
[00:27:00] Jessica: Well, Ryan, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'm probably not the person to ask that. Probably the producer who is here somewhere. Ryan, are you there?
[00:27:08] Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So, like Jess mentioned, a lot of them come and go. A lot of them are students or grad students too. So, their time here is short by definition. It's a little rare to have faculty or staff dedicate as many years as Jess and the press have.
[00:27:22] Neil: That's great. Are you behind glass actually as well too? Like, are you, is this like?
[00:27:27] Ryan: We're in a separate room now.
[00:27:28] Neil: Oh, wow, there you go, full set up.
[00:27:31] Kylé: Ryan, producer to producer. Hi, I'm Kylé.
[00:27:35] Neil: We're definitely leaving this part in. Thank you very much, Jessica, that was great. Really enjoyed the conversation, we enjoyed having you on the show today.
[00:27:44] Jessica: Thank you.
[00:27:46] Jennifer: Wow. That was another great episode, Neil. Again, learning so much. There's a few takeaways that I really love. I love the fact that, like we mentioned at the beginning, they're connected with museums. I think it's such a cool, like, lightbulb moment for myself; there's just so much [00:28:00] potential to promote, uh, anything that you do through podcasts. And even linking up with those bigger partnerships like the museum, because the museum gets something back too, because now they get extra content for that show.
[00:28:11] I also love the fact that she is a great storyteller. I already complimented her at the beginning of the episode on her voice. But I think to be able to explain the subject matter, like in the theater of the mind, art and architecture, you really need to be a good storyteller.
[00:28:25] Neil: Yeah. Jen, one of the other takeaways I think for us as higher education podcasters is how they look at the audience. I think that was interesting how, when we asked her about analytics, they overall see a base level of downloads for each episode that they sort of strive with. But that they know that the audience isn't always the same, because people sort of duck in and out of different episodes that suit their interests because it's, there's a wide spectrum of books. So, I just think that's an interesting insight that they're looking at [00:29:00] the individual episode level for the audience.
[00:29:03] And then, Jen, as you were saying, looking at things with this lens, you know, that carries over into almost specific episode marketing tactics they can do or specific things they can do with an episode that sort of like this, you know, Episode X is going to work really well with this museum, for example.
[00:29:20] The other part was really interesting is when we first reached out to her, she was like, I didn't know that you existed. I didn't know there was a network of other university podcasters out there. Then she listened to our episodes, and she wants to connect with, with Laura from the Stanford Storytelling Project. Uh, but now she's like really interested in connecting with other higher education podcasters as well, too. So, I think that was great.
[00:29:45] Jennifer: Everything that she mentioned in the episode too, she was great at giving us a whole bunch of examples.
[00:29:50] Neil: Yeah, we're linking to all of the episodes that link up to the different books and authors that she was talking about. So do have a look in the show notes for that. Anyway, Jessica was great. I learned a lot.
[00:30:05] Jennifer: I'm feeling smarter after this episode.
[00:30:07] Neil: Yes, yes, me too. As we do with all of them, so.
[00:30:11] Jennifer: It's like we went to Yale.
[00:30:12] Neil: We went to Yale.
[00:30:13] Jennifer: But for free.
[00:30:14] Neil: For free.
[00:30:14] Jennifer: Love it.
[00:30:15] Neil: Thank you for tuning into The Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring.
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