Continuing Studies: for Higher Ed Podcasters

[00:00:00] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters. In each episode, we talk to a university podcaster to ask some questions, get answers, and share tips and ideas about higher education podcasting. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lee. I'm a radio broadcaster and a podcaster.
[00:00:20] Neil McPhedran: And I'm Neil McPhedran. I've come to podcasting after 25 years in the digital agency world. Together, we've hosted, executive produced, and launched seven, and counting, higher education podcasts. Please remember to follow Continuing Studies in your listening app of choice and drop us a rating and or a review, we love to hear your feedback. While you're at it, also join the University Podcaster Network on LinkedIn.
[00:00:49] Hey Jen, welcome back to another episode of Continuing Studies. I'm excited about Today's episode, we strayed a little bit from our usual way we do things where we interview a higher education podcaster about their podcast or network. This time, we're drilling into a specific subject matter, YouTube, which is very relevant for higher education podcasters.
[00:01:13] We met Steve at Podcast Movement in Denver. He was a keynote speaker, and he took us through a bunch of really cool research on YouTube. And specifically, app users and how YouTube is a growing Importance in that mix of listening apps.
[00:01:35] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Yeah. And it was really interesting to hear his talk about using YouTube and growth for your podcast. And I want to note that he is a professor for NYU, so he is connected in the continuing studies realm. And like I said, this is important stuff to know. We hear all the time, like it's YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, there's a lot of things talking about it. But I also like the fact that he said, if you're getting your feet wet and maybe you've never had any training in broadcasting or like even like doing a video or anything like that, like, don't worry about doing it all at once. Get the audio first, learn how to speak on a few episodes until you feel more comfortable, don't worry about having to get a video, like, it just gets to be too much, and people forget too that they don't need to have video to have it on YouTube. There's a lot of successful podcasts that have millions of followers, and they just use a placard with a moving bar. So, I like the fact that he breaks it all down for us and doesn't make us feel pressured.
[00:02:32] Neil McPhedran: Yes, that's a very good clarification point, Jen. We're not saying do video, but we're digging into here, how do we use YouTube as a listening platform? So, let's jump in.
[00:02:45] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Welcome back. We are so excited to have this next guest, Neil, and I have seen him speak, he knows everything about YouTube, his name is Steven Goldstein.
[00:02:56] Neil McPhedran: Maybe you can just start, Steve, just give a little bit of an introduction to yourself and just a quick little background intro for us, please.
[00:03:04] Steve Goldstein: Yeah, absolutely. Most of my career has been in the broadcasting business, worked for companies like ABC and NBC, and then had the great fortune to start a company with four other guys called Saga Communications. And we built it up from a small company to about 100 radio stations, and we took that public on the American and then later the New York Stock Exchange. And I started getting a little itchy, I'd been there for 30 years, and started to think about what was next and what was next was on demand. I was watching it with House of Cards on Netflix and thinking this has to happen in audio. And indeed, it was embryonic, it was happening in public radio. It wasn't happening so much anywhere else.
[00:03:52] And so I launched a company called Amplifi Media, uh, just under nine years ago. And we consult all sorts of companies on their on-demand podcast strategies, there's an intersection with radio, we still do a lot of work in that sector. And then my latest stretch, if you will, has become being an adjunct professor at NYU. Where we developed and launched a course called the business of podcasting. Uh, there are a lot of courses about podcasting. That's not what this is. This is about the ecosystem. About the economics of the business and, uh, that hadn't been covered before.
[00:04:29] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I feel like I could pick your brain so much about broadcasting. Cause that's where my background lies as well. And just seeing the forest through the trees, so to speak of where the industry is going and how to make yourself more relevant.
[00:04:40] So I'm really happy that you're teaching more people on podcasting to kind of show them that kind of a new age of broadcasting, I like to say, but what do you see the role of podcasting in higher education to be?
[00:04:53] Steve Goldstein: I think that one of the great things about podcasting that gets lost in the conversation is not everything is a major hit, there aren't that many Smartlesses of the world or The Dailys. That is the rarefied air, that's the upper one percent; that's the one percent of the upper one percent. There are so many great podcasts that are focused on smaller areas and that smaller is pejorative. I mean, this is all about targeting the right audience with the right content, which is what you guys are doing and I admire all of that. I had a guy I met who is in the HVAC business, the air conditioning business.
[00:05:34] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Oh Wow.
[00:05:34] Steve Goldstein: And he launched a podcast, and his timing was really good because magazines, newsletters, whatever they might be in the HVAC business, weren't being utilized as much and so, he launched the podcast, got great adoption, great listenership. And his advertisers are Carrier and Trane and all the big companies in that space. And as he said to me, I'm putting my kids through college on this podcast. So, there are plenty of niches, it's a matter of figuring out which way to go.
[00:06:05] Neil McPhedran: We're definitely a niche, as we say in Canada, niche. But yeah, exactly, I think that's the exciting opportunity with podcasting and specifically with higher education podcasters, which is who our audience is.
[00:06:16] How have you seen podcasting evolve over the years? One of the things I heard you say in your keynote, and actually I heard you recently on the Media Roundtable podcast, you were commenting how you thought the definition of podcasting is changing. Can you unpack that for us a bit?
[00:06:33] Steve Goldstein: Yeah. So, I think it's a baby business, it's only been around a couple of years. When I got started eight years ago, there was maybe, you know, 200 million dollars in the business, and now we're at a billion, whatever it is. So, I mean, it really is a baby business.
[00:06:47] And I sort of divide it up into three eras. And the first era I call the 'MeUndies era', which were ads that were baked into podcasts and you know, you had an, had a URL you could use so that you could buy, uh, the underwear, or a mattress, or two mattresses, or four mattresses as it seemed to be. That was the first phase, pretty low tech.
[00:07:11] And then as podcasting became more popular, you saw big companies come in. And when that happened, it changed. These companies were not thinking about the baked in ads they were thinking about the technology. And so, all of that ramped up and that ecosystem developed. I mean, they were loading these things up, they didn't really know what was going to work, so they took shots. And some of them did exceptionally well. Some of them had podcasts that went on to become TV series or whatever, but most of them did not have major success. That's 'the throw the spaghetti against the wall era'.
[00:07:47] And now I think we're firmly in the 'what's a podcast era' because there are other things happening, like YouTube and video and, you know, does it have to be part of an RSS feed, Real Simple Syndication, or should it be sitting on TikTok? And what about YouTube Shorts? I mean, there's so many things to think about. And so, making people aware of your podcast and then finding your podcast, I think is sort of where we are today.
[00:08:17] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I totally agree with you. I always tell people this, that I feel like podcasting is too limited of a word because it's I'm finding that even the clients, I don't know, Neil, if you feel the same way, is that, even the needs of the clients are changing. So, what I thought was at first was like, oh, you're gonna have a business podcast, but now it's like, people want internal podcasts to replace their newsletters, like audio and video are becoming such a big part now of internal communications in addition to external. And podcasting for external, I always call it your marketing helper because now, you have stuff for your blog, you have stuff for your YouTube channel if you want, you have so much more instead of creating individual content for those pieces.
[00:08:59] Now that we are diving a little bit more into YouTube, why do you think it's such an important part to podcasting or do you?
[00:09:07] Steve Goldstein: So, a couple of things. First of all, I do love the term podcasting because I think everything needs a word, it needs a handle. And so, I don't think calling it audio is better than calling it podcasts.
[00:09:19] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: No.
[00:09:20] Steve Goldstein: But interesting, during the course of the course that I taught, I learned that there's more flexibility in the term podcasting among those students, than I had in my own mental set. They've already extrapolated and said, oh no, a podcast, it can be anything. And we did a study, which precedes the course, we did a study with Coleman Insights that we presented at Podcast Movement and we, we saw the same thing, that the audience was ahead of the podcast producers. The audience had already said, yeah, sometimes I'd like to watch a podcast, sometimes I do watch a podcast. Jordan Harbinger does a podcast, but he also has the video version of the podcast on YouTube. And people make their own choice of how they're going to consume that podcast. So, YouTube, for some podcasters, has been very scary, for others, they viewed it as an opportunity. We're still learning how all of this stuff is going to work and it's going to be great for some and not so great for others. And not everybody needs to have video. I think about The Daily. The Daily shouldn't do video, it's designed as an audio podcast. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be on YouTube, so that people can find it there.
[00:10:39] Neil McPhedran: That's great. I wanted to get in and ask you about the video or not video, and we can unpack that. But I was really struck, sitting in your keynote, when you dug into how the research revealed, like, correct me if I'm wrong, the study wasn't necessarily 100 percent focused on video, but it was more like, how are podcast listeners consuming podcasts vis a vis, like, what apps are they consuming with? And I think that was a really interesting insight in there, which YouTube came in there. But maybe you could sort of just take a step back for us at that higher level of what your research revealed? Or what are the key podcast apps and how does YouTube play into that landscape?
[00:11:16] Steve Goldstein: Yeah, so for me, it was really interesting, 73 percent of consumers are using one of the big podcast apps. There have been a lot of podcast apps. I mean, the graveyard is filled with these apps. They all had aspirations of attracting a large audience, but it's come down to YouTube, Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And that doesn't mean that the others aren't any good. There are some great apps out there. You know, I use Pocket Casts from time to time, but it's really become centralized into just a handful of podcasts.
[00:11:44] But the other thing that was really interesting, one of the big takeaways from the study, was that people are not binary, they're choosing multiple podcast apps depending on what they're doing and when they're doing it. 72 percent of podcast consumers are using multiple apps, that was a revelation, certainly to me, maybe not to others. Certainly not to the students at NYU, because they were already doing it, and in fact I was doing it too. Sometimes I would be on YouTube, sometimes I would want to see the face of somebody in a podcast, sometimes I would just check YouTube for a moment to see the visual, but I'd be off doing something else, taking a walk or whatever it might be. I think people are a lot more flexible with how they're using podcast apps than we originally thought. And so that gives us a lot of possibilities on how best to interact with people on different apps and different platforms.
[00:12:40] Neil McPhedran: Why do podcast listeners choose YouTube then? Like what's the, within their mix of app selections, how does YouTube play into that? And I guess, like why are podcast listeners choosing YouTube?
[00:12:55] Steve Goldstein: A lot of that has to do with where they already are, and they're on YouTube. It's the second largest search engine on the planet owned by the largest search engine on the planet. And so, they're already there, they're already looking for content. And in the study, one of the things that we saw was that people were saying that they can't find their favorite podcast on YouTube. In other words, they've already chosen that podcast, they like that podcast, they were listening to it on Apple or Spotify or another app. But when they went to look for it in YouTube, it was MIA; that's a problem. Because they are using YouTube as a search engine and a discovery engine, and so they expect the content to be there. And when it's not, it's a disappointment, number one. But number two, if you're trying to build new audience, which most podcasters are, you certainly want to be findable.
[00:13:48] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Do you think though that it's mainly the findability? Like I know people do watch podcasts, especially ones with celebrities on it. But like regular people that are building their following, do you think maybe it's just a jumping off platform to get you to Spotify and the other places? Because for me, and maybe it's because like I'm an old school broadcaster, but I always was like, I don't want anyone taking a video of me on the mic in the booth. That's boring. Like I'm not someone famous that people want to take a look at.
[00:14:17] Steve Goldstein: But again, it depends on the use case. So, number one, how do you discover podcasts? 54% say friends and family. That's pretty low tech. So, recommendations count for a lot, even with all the cool technology and all of the, you know, social platforms we have available, still comes down to friends and family. Number two, at 52%, so just two percentage points below that, is YouTube. That's a today number. And then a podcast app or service at 50%.
[00:14:47] So, pretty tight up there at the top, but it's not one thing or another, and nor did we see any evidence that it's an on ramp to going to Spotify or Apple for a podcast. There are people who do that, for sure. But that is not where the action seems to be. The action seems to be I'm going to watch, I'm going to listen, I'm going to do whatever I want to do at that point. And I'm going to use this giant search engine to complete the mission.
[00:15:16] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: But like you said, I guess in your earlier part too, it's not necessarily about watching, because you even encourage that podcasts that don't have a video component, you can still put them up.
[00:15:26] Steve Goldstein: Yeah. And as I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of podcasts should not have a video component, or maybe they just need a placeholder graphic, or maybe they can be really cool, and do an animated graphic or something fun like that. But not every podcast is designed to be a video podcast, nor should it be. And I don't know that podcasters should immediately default into thinking, well, if I'm launching something today, I better make it a video podcast. Again, I don't think that's the use case. We did not see that in the YouTube study, we saw that people do it all different ways.
[00:16:03] And I can just give you an anecdotal, I have a 32-year-old, I have a 30-year-old, and I have a 25-year-old, and they use media differently, and the 25-year-old is the most YouTube oriented. And he will check out the video portion, but he lives in New York City, and so he's walking the streets, he's not watching the podcast, but he's using it as a reference point. That's just anecdotal. It's just one person and it's, you know, in one use case. But I do think that is emblematic of the way people want the flexibility to listen slash watch content.
[00:16:42] Neil McPhedran: I think that's a really good point. Actually, Justin from Transistor FM just put out a blog post a couple of days ago with his recommendation, and I agree with it. Saying, if you're new, don't try to start with video. You know, find your voice, figure out how your show is going to work. Like what's the length of it? Like what's your style and so on. And his point was video just complicates it more and it's so much harder to tackle video as well, too.
[00:17:13] But I think the key point you're making, and your research shows is there's a three-legged stool of key apps, Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. And we're doing ourselves a serious disservice by ignoring YouTube. And it's going to be a wobbly stool and we're missing out on a number of potential listeners. But also missing out on some real key discovery opportunities.
[00:17:38] Steve Goldstein: There's not only the study that we did, but there were two studies that followed, they reinforced the same findings that we had with different tacts. But there's no question that the focus on all of these studies is clear. And that is, people are already using this. So, this is not a future thing. This is happening today.
[00:17:57] Neil McPhedran: I think the other part I'd love to drill into is the discovery part and how YouTube is, and you mentioned it, it's the number two discovery engine or search engine in the world. But how does YouTube play into that new podcast discovery and just sort of and maybe unpack that a bit for us.
[00:18:14] Steve Goldstein: Uh, sure. And actually, one of the examples was YouTube Shorts, which is of course YouTube's answer to TikTok and doesn't get the same kind of coverage, but it is a monster machine doing billions of views on a weekly basis. And we asked the question, have you ever discovered a podcast for the first time by seeing it promoted or featured on YouTube Shorts and 40% Of the people said yes. And so, linking through that's really key, that's a great opportunity for promotion. So, there's a video strategy, by the way, supporting maybe an audio strategy. In other words, you might be using video to promote the podcast, but it is an audio-based podcast.
[00:19:01] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Sticking on the YouTube shorts, I want to know because you're the master, what type of content should we be putting on our YouTube shorts? Especially if maybe we're like a newer podcast and we're not exactly sure what would be great to capture.
[00:19:15] Neil McPhedran: Well, I also, I don't think everyone knows what a YouTube short is, so maybe we should just sort of take a step back and if you could define what a YouTube short is for us and then how we should really be thinking about using them.
[00:19:26] Steve Goldstein: It is their answer to TikTok. And it is a separate platform, it is grown massively in popularity. The question is, so what do you do with it? You know, I think that there are. There's no one formula of what you can or should do with it, but it is a way to introduce yourself. I'll give you an example of somebody who I think has used all of these platforms very intelligently and playfully. Planet Money, which is, uh, an older NPR title, uh, they have explainer videos, you know, uh, why are bonds going down? Well, so he's giving you real information and then he's pushing you to the bigger show. That to me is brilliant use of any platform, mind you for promotion, but really good for Planet Money, and I know that it's had an impact for them.
[00:20:24] Neil McPhedran: That's great. What would be some advice you'd give our audience then? So, okay, we're all in. So, we hear it, got an RSS feed, I'm up on all the channels, I've ignored YouTube, but I'm hearing you loud and clear, and Jen and Neil have also been talking about this as well. But here's Steve coming along with the research now to really hammer it home. How should I approach YouTube? And I don't have a video feed yet. So, what should I be doing to get up on YouTube?
[00:20:49] Steve Goldstein: So, I would be using it promotionally at that point. I wouldn't worry about the podcast itself. Yes, I would invest a little bit in some graphics so that you look good when people are stopping by. But I do think that the value for you would be Instagram, YouTube, shorts, TikTok. I talk a lot about, uh, the grid of pain and it is the most difficult challenge for podcasters to have high awareness and high content value. Most content is sitting in the lower quadrant of the grid of pain, meaning that it has lesser value and lower awareness.
[00:21:27] And so if you're going to get yourself into the upper right quadrant, which is where a successful podcast is, you have to be able to try lots of different things so that you're moving the needle and you don't always know exactly How or when that needle is going to move. But one thing I’m quite sure of is that without awareness Success is elusive.
[00:21:50] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I like it.
[00:21:50] Steve Goldstein: It's on my website. You go take a look at it, but it is not just true in podcasting. It's true in all audio, video, it doesn't matter. You could, uh, replicate that and put it into any kind of business terms. You know, I mean, if you were selling soda, you would want to move yourself from the bottom left corner to the upper right.
[00:22:12] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I think it's about being patient too. Like I was just watching, uh, the YouTube version of the podcast Diary of a CEO. And they were talking to some, one of the first people that made like huge amounts of following on YouTube. And he said, you know, it took him eight years to get there. He said he did it for a few years and he only had a following of 200, 000 and to your point, Steve, it just took switching a few things. And then all of a sudden it was like one thing that like shot it out. But I think a lot of people just give up too fast.
[00:22:41] Steve Goldstein: Oh, or the quality was never going to be there anyway. I mean, you know, there were a lot of podcasts that were started during the pandemic. People were kicking around, it was free, it was easy, it was fun. YouTube videos, same sort of thing, there are some videos that perform extremely well, and most do not. Okay, that's fair and fine.
The other thing that I think, well, there are two things that I think are important, uh, that we talk to our clients about all the time. One is maximizing owned media. And when I think about the business that you're in with universities, tremendous owned media assets, newsletters, classrooms, print publications, billboards, cafeterias. I mean, there's so many opportunities to promote content and most organizations, I don't care which organization we're talking about. They don't do a great job promoting with their owned media.
[00:23:37] Oh yeah. We put a newsletter out on the podcast three weeks ago. Great. Let's put a newsletter out on the podcast twice a week because that's how often the podcast is coming out. Let's reinforce what's going to be on this episode. So, I think owned media is one of the key vulnerabilities or underexploited assets that many organizations have and don't use effectively.
[00:24:04] And the other thing that I think we touched on, but I want to come back to is the potential of YouTube to increase the listener base. Edison research put out a really interesting statistic that the average audio listener is listening to four hours a day, okay? That's pretty exceptional, but it hasn't grown in 10 years. So how do you grow the base for your podcast, broadcast, whatever it may be. If you're not going to be able to get them from four hours to four hours and ten minutes, four hours and twenty minutes, you're going to have to focus on retention, and you're probably going to have to kick someone else off a shelf. So, if people are listening to an average of five podcasts, which is what the average is in nine episodes, five podcasts, nine episodes. You have to kick someone else off that podcast show before they're going to listen to you on a regular basis.
[00:25:03] Neil McPhedran: That's a really good point. I just want to make a mention here that we'll make sure we get these links to this research, and we'll link to all these things in our show notes. Your point about the owned media is a fantastic one. The higher ed podcasts we work with, you're right, like the actual campus, but also all of their owned assets is an outreach channels, their emails, and like so many sub schools within a university have magazines and all their alumni and all that kind of stuff is immense opportunity.
[00:25:31] One of the podcasts I work with for Stanford, we just did an installation in the bookstore. So, we did a whole, um, section, a whole like top to bottom shelf. Of all the authors that we'd interviewed that year over, over the last number of months, it was really about marketing or creating awareness for the show. But the bookstore was just all over it. They were just like, this is great. So, I echo that, and I appreciate you sharing that with our audience. Well, this has been great. I think we could keep talking and I know there's lots of other really interesting insights.
[00:26:02] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I have a billion questions that I still could ask you, but I'll leave it at that because I really have one that's burning a little bit because you touched upon it is nothing to do with YouTube. Do you see, because I've noticed, I noticed it at the last conference, radio was never brought up in the previous conference, now it's brought up again and you also being former broadcaster. And there was a gentleman there that owns Radio FM, I believe, out of the UK. And it is radio that is dedicated to podcasts and has podcast clips on it. And I'm noticing it here in Canada too, on our radio stations we are featuring podcasts. Do you think radio is also going to be part of that coupled together plan, I guess, to get more listeners?
[00:26:47] Steve Goldstein: So, radio is on the defense at this point. Consumption on radio stations, generally going down, it's still a 10 billion business, it's not going to go away tomorrow. It has tremendous advantages. It has big audience, it has ease of use in the car, although that's under attack as well. But I think radio should be thinking about on demand just as the TV stations think about it. It just needs to be reflexive. Not everybody is going to listen to four hours of a morning show. Oh, wait a minute, let me revise that. No one is going to listen to four hours of a morning show, and they never have. So, if there was a great bit that ran at 7:20 AM, people missed it, and now you have a way to harvest that. And so that's a great use, time shifted audio is great use for radio broadcasters. They can go way further. They could, you know, for an adult contemporary station, you could have, you know, health related podcasts. I mean, there are a lot of opportunities.
[00:27:46] As far as repurposing podcasts onto radio, that's my least favorite. I don't think that that is a natural. It is for some. I mean, there are some shows that have gone from podcast to radio. But they're more block oriented, and I appreciate that, and I admire it, and I would do the same thing. But I'm not sure that a radio station filled with podcasts in random order solves a problem for a listener.
[00:28:13] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Just curious because it's something that's coming out again. It's in its early stages and it's interesting. So, I've learned so much from you and I know that Neil and I now have to kick other people off the shelf for our podcast to, uh, grow. So, let's get to it, Neil.
[00:28:30] Neil McPhedran: That's your key takeaway? I love it. You're very competitive, Jen.
[00:28:33] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: I'm very competitive. Someone has to be in this duo. Okay?
[00:28:38] Steve Goldstein: It's the tyranny of the shelf. I gotta, I gotta say.
[00:28:41] Neil McPhedran: Steve, it's great having you here. And thank you for taking our audience through some of that really insightful research and especially sort of into the world of YouTube and how we should be embracing and moving it into our mix and considering it as part of the three biggies, Apple, Spotify and YouTube should be right in that mix too. So, thank you very much for coming on our show and sharing your time and your insights with us.
[00:29:04] Steve Goldstein: My pleasure. Uh, great to get to know you guys.
[00:29:07] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Great. Thank you.
[00:29:09] Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, that was awesome. I really enjoyed that. And I think it is super relevant and timely. I don't know about you, but I'm going through some year end 2023 in review with some of the podcasts we work with. And a huge takeaway and implication for 2024 is YouTube. There's a massive opportunity there and I think it was great how we spent some time going through why and some of the research behind YouTube and I'm excited for the year ahead and really trying to figure out YouTube and work it into the overall listening out mix. How about you, Jen?
[00:29:49] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Jumping onto what you were just saying though, is the fact that like going back to the whole idea of like, do I do video? Do I not do video? The fact is there's other ways to be on YouTube than putting out a full video, not just the placard. He talked about that a lot of people overlook YouTube shorts. YouTube shorts are a good way to drive traffic to your podcast, because like an audiogram, you can take that piece of gold and you can put on YouTube short and YouTube shorts usually get higher engagement as well, because they're just like quick little tidbits. So, I like the fact that he actually explained YouTube shorts, and like, I think that's a tool that a lot of people forget about.
[00:30:26] Neil McPhedran: Yeah, you're totally right, Jen. I'm excited this year to employ some of these YouTube short strategies within our mix, both for this podcast, but also for our clients. But I think overall, I came away from the conversation going, yes, we need to start infusing and thinking more about YouTube in the overall listening app mix. But also, it's approachable. We don't need to be, uh, precious about this and we just start with the audio. Get the audio up there into YouTube and then start applying YouTube best practices and really using YouTube as a growth engine and a discovery engine for the podcast as a whole. Otherwise, anything else, Jen?
[00:31:08] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: No, I'll simplify what you said, stick your shit up on YouTube. The end.
[00:31:12] Neil McPhedran: Oh, I like it. Even better. Use that one for sure. Okay, well,
[00:31:16] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Simplify.
[00:31:16] Neil McPhedran: With that, that's another episode of Continuing Studies. Bye bye.
[00:31:22] Jennifer-Lee Gunson: Bye!
[00:31:23] Neil McPhedran: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters, we hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. And if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts.
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